A potential use for all those unnamed "Villages"

[Aegir]

A long time ago now, several small areas were built basically for no other reason than to fill out the dead spaces of the map along the roads, consisting of small, unnamed villages. These villages have little use beyond the fact that they grant a touch of realism to the world map: instead of traveling from one big city to another with nothing in between, you now travel from one big city to another, but walk past one or two small, nameless villages along the way. I'd like to propose we create some use for these villages, and at the same time tap an element that until now has been virtually non-existent.

Say you were to re-do these villages into PvP/PK zones. Give each one a level of defense, be it a civilian militia, or perhaps even guards from Waterdeep, Berdusk, or some other big city if its nearby one and falls under its influence.

Evil PCs are welcome to enter said village and attempt to fight their way past the guards who protect the villages mayor/sheriff/high priest/whatever mob serves as its leader, all the while the combat draws in the defenders from throughout the village to assist in his defense. Finally, the PCs either flee, or try their hand at the leader mob, and if they take him, they win control of the village, or defend it from the vicious attack, if its still ongoing.

This is where the PK element comes in. During the combat (or perhaps after its over), an echo goes out that there are sounds/signs of combat coming from <insert village name here>, and the brave souls of the forces of good must go and liberate the village from the clutches of its new evil overlords.

In its simplest form, this would likely be very easy to do: add some guard mobs, a few progs for delivering echoes, and a policy declaring these villages PK zones. It could go up from there, perhaps allowing for cities or organizations to take control of these villages for some benefit to them in the form of tithes/food/whatever, thus giving them a tangible value to various groups and a real reason to fight over them.

I realize this has never been a PK MUD, but even if this were brought in, it still wouldn't be. All it'd do is allow those players who were interested in it to take part, while placing such a restriction on it (it only happens in these villages) that anyone who wasn't interested could easily avoid it.

I'm honestly not sure about all the reasons why the PK rules are the way they are, or even all the reasons for the existence of all these little villages (I know the original reason for the PK rules was that PK largely destroyed the MUD the games creators came from, as well as a general desire towards strict RP), but I honestly don't see how this would hurt any of that.

PK would be limited to small villages that are easily avoided if thats not your taste, and the MUD would no doubt continue on as per usual for everyone that didn't want to take part in it, while adding an element of good/evil conflict that is extremely enjoyable to many players.

Anyway... those are my thoughts. Discuss.

[Jaenoic]

An interesting idea and I have to say I like the element of epic conquest vs defense. However as I was reading one glaring flaw spoke out to me. What would happen to dead PCs? If there was a battle going on it would not be easily to retrieve their corpses, and while whichever side(defender vs attacker) wins could retrieve their bodies, it is not likely they would easily allow allies of the other side to come and retrieve their bodies.

A note about PKill. I can't stand it. For one it's incredibly cut and dry, higher level trumps lower level, rogue and warrior will lose to priest and wizard granted that the level is high enough. Don't know how bards fit in there. There's nothing really too creative about PK in that if two PCs fight several times, granted that they are not similar level/class, I doubt the outcome will be different every time. Because of this you get bully-syndrome encounters and gang-up-on encounters.
Also, PK can create a lot of grief. I'm not sure I've ever been part of or seen a PKill situation where everyone walked away thinking, "that was completely worth it." I'm not saying they don't exist, but in my opinion less savory encounters are more common than worthwhile ones.

All that said I still find this an interesting idea. It's always been my dream to have a character valiantly defend a city from marauding orcs!

[Selveem]

I think this is a wonderful idea. My only worry is the power differential between the Evils and the Goodies. Most goodies are kinda timid (I realize this is not always the case and sounds generalized, but I mean on average). Because of this, Evil characters are more likely to have better equipment, more experience, and keener insight on PK..

Also, Evil Priests have much more powerful spells than good-aligned priests. Priests are by far the most powerful class currently on the MUD and I don't feel the MUD is balanced well enough for this to properly work fairly (except for goodies to take back the cities while the Evils aren't logged - that kinda takes away from what is being accomplished).

Aside from the power difference, I think this is an awesome way to get goodies more things to do. To differentiate them from the commoners (which I feel is hard considering most of them hang out around the fountain ;P [a joke!]).

[Sairaven]

Personally, I'd like to have a little more player conflict in my RP. I don't know if this would be the solution, though I can see Sairaven coming to aid the villagers in reclaiming their town.

But I go out and wander and then come back to (insert city here) and wander until I log out.

I'd love to see more player-based conflict.

[Alvirin]

I don't think that is a good idea turning settlements into a free for all pvp area at its best, those settlements are there by a reason, to make the game realistic by providing humbly what those areas can.

First of all conquering a settlement involves a group powerful enough to beat the militia and all the help that could have sent his bigger cousins (if you are able to walk from ZK through Anauroch to a random town in two in-game hours they can certainly send help) and later you have to maintain it (which is very unlikely if somehow you would have been able to conquer a town inside enemy territory since supplies and troops are not likely to arrive in only a few days) mainly these are the reasons why exist delimited frontiers with light oscillations since the biggest cities/states really don't have any interest in going to long expensive wars, raiding a town is an entirely different matter.

What it could be possible is creating a few mini-areas in the frontiers of antagonic regions where skirmishes take place there but still it would be something related to whom is logged in a particular moment.

With all of this I think that the best idea would be for those who like PK is creating an arena in Westgate and people can fight to death there if that is their inclination.

That is just my opinion though.

[EDIT] Just a idea I had just after posting.

Since players are likely to be adventurers and not regular members of an army/militia stimulating conflicts between organizations (Zhentarim/Harpers/Shadow thieves/Waterdeep City Guard/Night Masks/Cult of the Dragon(?)/Alliance of the lords(?)) are excellent sources to provide conflict between players that could or could not finish in PK but surely would make the game more enjoyable although since I started playing I never noticed them (it could be possible because are played very well though).

[Aegir]

An interesting idea and I have to say I like the element of epic conquest vs defense. However as I was reading one glaring flaw spoke out to me. What would happen to dead PCs?

The simple answer: while these would be PK areas, the MUD still operates under its PK rules. The killers get their one item, then they must leave it to be retrieved/drag it to the village exit to be retrieved/something to make it retrievable.

The less simple one would require a bit of hard-coding, perhaps a special flag for PK zones that transfer corpses to a morgue room, most likely near the entrance to the village so they can be easily retrieved.

I think this is a wonderful idea. My only worry is the power differential between the Evils and the Goodies. Most goodies are kinda timid (I realize this is not always the case and sounds generalized, but I mean on average). Because of this, Evil characters are more likely to have better equipment, more experience, and keener insight on PK.

First of all, I'm not entirely sure this is true. Sure, goods may be less aggressive, but theres also the fact that there are vastly more good-aligned players then evil, and the current kismet rules ensure that this will always be the case. Right now goods outnumber evils about 4 to 1 during peak play times, and I know from personal experience, anytime an evil does something that might draw a PC reaction, the good force that arrives is always larger. The good side of the MUD simply has more players to draw from.

Personally, I'd like to have a little more player conflict in my RP. I don't know if this would be the solution, though I can see Sairaven coming to aid the villagers in reclaiming their town.

While I agree this isn't the answer, the fact that its so easily avoided by those who don't wish to take part means its an answer for those people who wish to take part, and completely irrelevant to those who don't. Imm-run events can't happen all the time, and I've seen first-hand that large-scale Imm-run combat events tend to be alot of work, so even in the best of times they won't happen more than 1-2/year, and honestly the number of them that I recall in the history of the MUD, I can count on one hand.

The only other option is to create a code-based conflict system, or let a bit of slack out of the PK rules in general. I'd prefer the former, personally.

I don't think that is a good idea turning settlements into a free for all pvp area at its best, those settlements are there by a reason, to make the game realistic by providing humbly what those areas can.

First of all conquering a settlement involves a group powerful enough to beat the militia and all the help that could have sent his bigger cousins (if you are able to walk from ZK through Anauroch to a random town in two in-game hours they can certainly send help)

Lets take the 3.5E rules and use them as an example, and lets say that a Lv 50 PC here is equivalent to a Lv 20 D&D PC (which is fairly close to accurate).

The average commoner militia member is going to be no threat whatsoever to a powerful PC, in fact a single PC would be able to easily wipe out an entire village on his own if all they have is a peasant militia. Toss in some elite guards if you're attacking someplace near a large city (say, Lords Alliance soldiers), most of which are likely around Lv 3-5 (say, Lv 8-10 in FK), and maybe one or two commander types (who might push Lv 10 in D&D, or Lv 20-25 in FK), and you've got... a battle that might cause a single PC to break a sweat before he wiped the lot of them out completely.

I've no desire to see it being that easy. In fact, I don't want it to be something a single PC can do: I want it to be something that, if a single PC tried, he'd get himself suitably slaughtered for his efforts. I want it to be something where the mass of powerful mobs would challenge a group of 4-5 Lv 50 PCs, and tie them up long enough for the first wave of PC defenders to arrive if they rush.

Right now, there is very little for a max level PC to do, short of sitting around RPing, or taking lower level PCs and showing them around. While these things are fine in moderation, it'd be nice if there was something else for them to do. Usually, about the only something else is events, and we've already covered that those are few and far between.

And before anyone says, "Well, apply to build some then!" I already have, and I fully intend to. None of this would impact anyone that wasn't interested in it; the villages are easily avoided if thats not your thing, and you'd never even have to play a part in it.

Personally, short of the work involved in re-doing the areas (and the likelihood of some code tweaks to make it work well), I see no downside. It'd impact what amounts to a small, virtually unused portion of the MUD as it is, and would add immensely to an area of the MUD that right now is all but non-existent.

[Selveem]

The only thing I really would like added to this is that there be some form of question that must be answered before the PC is allowed to enter: "Are you sure? These lands are currently controlled by a pretty powerful alliance of evil bastards?" might say some traveller at the gate when someone attempts to enter.

[Aegir]

The only thing I really would like added to this is that there be some form of question that must be answered before the PC is allowed to enter: "Are you sure? These lands are currently controlled by a pretty powerful alliance of evil bastards?" might say some traveller at the gate when someone attempts to enter.

I agree completely. I'd want something akin to the OOC echo that you get when you first enter Undermountain, "This is a Player-Kill area. By entering this area, you are giving your consent to be attacked by other PCs. THIS IS YOUR FINAL WARNING."

Make it short, sweet, and to the point.

[Mele]

I have to say - I'm not in favor of this.


Really - why? FK is not a NON PK place. It's perfectly easy to go stir up confrontation (Trust me, I know. Daunyelle's numbers of kills is sick when she was in her glory of trouble starting.). I don't see the need to be bored, kill a mob, and have someone come find you for some pvp. If you wanted the pvp it's easy enough to even just duel.

Five people in MS. One bored person wanting pvp. Person walks into city, kills a mobile. Echo goes out. Five people in MS come to kill person.

A: Those five people floor him quickly and are on their way.
- Not fun for him.

B: Those five people are all lowbies, the person floors them quickly.
- Not fun for them.

C: A character that would never search and defend these things is felt they're forced to because of the echos.
- Not fun for them.

I'd much rather see some good vs evil plotting and rp and such that could lead to PK rather than ringing a bell saying "Hey, come fight me."

It's not as if if you happen to raze an area there is no consequence. Most times you're seen, and people are sent for you.

I don't know why Selveem over here is babbling that goodies are weaker and have less - Hello, they outnumber evils on the who list most times x3. :P Silly tempurian.


Maybe offer to build a battle arena or something that sends a bell echo or whatever out when someone is there wanting to duel or something?

[Oghma]

There is actually an under used sparring area that can be found through ic means.

Frankly what bothers me is pc character going through a village, leveling it alone then fleeing immediately when encountering resistance from pc's arriving on scene. This flight might be across the entire continent or even fleeing, quiting and relogging in twenty minutes to shake pc's from their trail. Though the second can mean ooc business sometimes. I think villages themselves should not be leveled outside of a organized rp structure. A person going in on their lonesome and killing every living thing might call in local militias to chase them or witnesses later to track them depending on the situation. Special areas like dungeons, areas are peppered throughout the world for leveling or pvp depending on the situation. I would rather see these used before villages as cattle grounds.

[Velius]

I had a huge thing written up and it got deleted...

In short, I love the idea , but why would a group of people suddenly care about taking over a small village? A group of 10 guys go over and attack a village.... why? And how would people way down in Waterdeep Square learn of an attack/raid? Shilmista is attacked all the time by Orc Hordes... why don't we run down there and defend that city? What I'm saying is... why care about the small little-known village being attacked by 5-10 guys? And why would the 5-10 guys care about the village? And how would we learn about the small village being attacked by the small # of people? And how would this be more of a priority than Shilmista?

[Aegir]

but, why would a group of people suddenly care about taking over a small village? A group of 10 guys go over and attack a village.... why?

The short answer? Because they already happen. Just yesterday, a PC fled Waterdeep for the Keep after clearing one of the villages of its citizens, only to have an Imm load a child that "survived the slaughter" and fingered him as the murderer. Later we came to find the place was swarming with guards from one of the local large cities to defend its remaining populace.

Its not uncommon for evil PCs to go to these villages and just be evil, killing everyone there, and right now this does nothing unless an Imm witnesses it and cares to act. All automating the defense and warning parts would do is allow for this to happen independent of Imm intervention.

It also does nothing because the citizens of these villages hardly pose a threat. Most have no real combat ability, and there is rarely anything there that would constitute a militia, let alone a trained city guard.

[Lerytha]

Well... lets instead have more imm use of "consequences that bite you in the butt", which will also have the added affect of "wising up" some evil characters. Mind you, that will make the whole opposing evil thing slightly more difficult, because then we have nasty plots to worry about.

I like your idea, Aegir, but rather than coding it and making it essentially similar to a WoW "raid", I suggest we take into account that players like world-affecting events (and by that, I don't mean realms-shaking, I mean, events that actually make the world seem more real) by working with the imms when they try and create those consequences.

Basically, more "smaller" roleplays to add depth and make repercussions real for both good and bad PCs.

Interesting thoughts, though. Just easier to ask the imms to run more RPs, than ask them to code more.

~Ol

[Aegir]

I like large-scale events as much as anyone; I organized one years ago, but you said it yourself, attacking a small, insignificant village is not a big event. Organizing an attack on Berdusk, a siege on Waterdeep, a Zhentarim invasion of Shadowdale... those are large events that could spur the entire pbase into action, but they're also extremely rare, as they should be.

You simply can't expect the Imms to be hands-on with everything, and once you take this into account, you start to realize that things should be setup so that players have interesting, player-driven things they can do in between large-scale Imm-run events.

[Glim]

I like the idea. Mainly because of the roleplay that could ensue, not necessarily the pk, though that is obviously an end result.

Once a party has gained control of the village, I could see certain characters being lord over certain villages, if they are good then they are the defenders and managers of that town. If they are evil... well... they are tyrants ruling it with an iron fist.

I could also see, once a certain party or person has conquered a town. Receiving rewards as tithes or taxes and being able to manage it or something. Say you can buy mercenaries to defend it against those who would take it from you. Or you could better equip and train the militia. They could hire adventurers to help defend the town or to do quests or some such. Thieves could actually use traps for something...

This reminds me very much of the strongholds that were in Baldur's Gate II as well as the one in NWN2. Heh, I always loved those.

[Mariela]

I'm suprised the IM's don't push buttons on people more often. Especially when they do evil things for the sake of doing evil things.. or challenge those who are good to maintain their "good" status, ect.

Or push those characters who are breaking with tradition of faith/race/gender/nationality ect. Make you sort of have that RP that supports the reason why your character IS the way they are.

That kid thing the other day for example. one of my Alts was there. It was less about her hiking up her boots and running to see what was going on in the Keep and more about who she was as a person. What was more important? A child who had suffered, or going out and committing murder against a man cause he started it? It's story. Will the person who started the entire thing get caught? Yes. Do I think it's going to be soon? If they are smart and clever, it could take YEARS of Real life time. And I'm okay with that. Why? Cause it makes a story.... it gives a heads and a tail of a coin. On one side, is my character, tryign to figure out what the hell that was all about.. how could someone do that to a village? What should she do? And what is in her ability to help if she can at all? Is it up to her to protect and virtually adopt a child cause he wandered into her life one night? And on the other, the man who did it, and how he lives with the fact he not only did it.. but now has to live in a sense of paranoia about the posse catching up to him. Or maybe, a child who will never forget his face...

It's good stuff. And if it's never resolved, it still mattered. And it's not a big huge sweeping event that takes 6 IM's and a monkey to over see. But it matters for those characters... it connects them in a web of plot and intrigue where more things can be built upon.

I'd be okay with this little "war gaming" online idea, if an IM ran it.. and it was prearranged ahead of time. I'd be even better for me if it was organizational based.. so the Zhentarium decides that on the 1st of September they are going to go out and slaughter a village to show Shadowdale a lesson... fine. They sign up with an IM and do their thing. Maybe it gets leaked out that the Zhentirum is planning an attack somewehre in teh Dales.... and thus.... some goodies sign up to help bolister some smaller villages. No onw knows where the Z will strike.. ect.

What it amounts down to, is making it an event, but maybe not an earth shattering one. But... it needs an DM, and Overseeer. Someone who can make sure that all is fair as much as war can be.. and be there if problems arise.

Cause no one wants to spend three hours arguing with someone over who wasn't on stun mode, or if someone did not RP up a first hit properly. (I have SEE that happen before. )

[Aegir]

Cause no one wants to spend three hours arguing with someone over who wasn't on stun mode, or if someone did not RP up a first hit properly. (I have SEE that happen before. )

Not having killmode set low enough can't be blamed on anyone, there is code in place that makes that a certainty. As for the rest, thats what the disclaimer on the area is for, "If you enter this area, you are consenting to PK."

Basically, it'd mean that alot of the niceties are out the window. If you're there, you're looking to PK, thats the entire reason for the areas existence. RP is fine, but an area like this would exist not for the talk side of RP, but for the conflict side.

[Velius]

Well...
In an earlier post, Aegir you brought up how attacking a "small insignifcant village is not a big event" and then you showed some example of big events. Well, if we are to make this some sort of massive PK thing... we should get a good RP first to make this "small insignificant village" a big event.

[Kirkus]

I don't think entering an area should be enough consent to pk. There should always be the rp that rolls into a pk situation. I don't ever want that choice taken away from me. Remember that when everyone logs off they should still like the game, not feel like they just got violated by someone else. Thats why we get to choose. I just don't think any area should exist outside the rp side of the game.

Saying that I think this idea has some good possabilities. I think it has some danger for abuse but that is always the risk we run.

I think this could be very helpful for the evils, especially the evil faiths and large organizations. As a Tallasian, back when there was a large number of active followers of Talos, we would on occasion go to a small village and rp with the villagers. Basically make them offer prayers to Talos or we would beat them up or kill them. Sometimes we would get imm assistance and sometimes not. The problem was that if we didn't get imm assistance it was either kill em' all or just throw arround a bunch of smotes and eventually end the rp.

I like what Glim said about receiving tithes and what not. Small groups could go in and rp with the villagers and end up with an actual reward like glory and favour of your deity.

And perhaps we could make the vilalges burnable. So the evils can go in and torch the place and wreak their havok and get their rewards and then the goodies can go in and fix up the joint, heal all the wounded give solice to the poor and yadda yadda yadda. Get their glory on, you know.