Torm vs Helm

Aran · Post by **Aran** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:50 pm

I'm sure some of you have heard of the rivalries between the Church of Helm and the Church of Torm. It isn't anything bloody, or war-like, and the gods even get along with each other pretty well. The clergy of these churches have been at odds with each other since the Time of Troubles, though.

Now I've never noticed any sort of rivalry in-game, so I thought it might be interesting to bring up. It might inject more flavor into the "goody" faiths.

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:41 pm

Same with Mystra and Helm. :O

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:50 pm

The Paladin roleplay that I ran when first taking up responsibility for squires and knights touched a little upon the relationships between the various deities and their orders.

In my research I came upon the following points of reference. (Those who were able to attend that roleplay would have seen a number of these played out - particularly the bickering between Sir Karl Sunstar and the rather dour Sir Marando)

- Clergy of Helm and Torm have some major ideological differences and though civil, tend to behave rather coolly towards each other. Tormites took on some very specific vows to heal the damage that was wrought during the Time of Troubles and see their Helmite brothers as lacking in compassion for not following suit. Likely the Helmite behaviour in Maztica has only exentuated those beliefs.

Torm: Paladins of the True God defend the weak, defeat evil, and uphold the high moral standards required for servants of a god who serves bright and righteous Tyr.

Helm: Paladins of the Watcher prefer to guard against evil or slay it outright rather than work to heal its damages. They seem rigid and uninterested in helping others.

- The fact that Helm killed Mystra to prevent her regaining her godhood during the Time of Troubles should always provoke interesting roleplay between followers. Whether it should become heated will likely depend on the individual roleplayer.
Helm was merely carrying out his duty, but again, an unwillingness to show mercy and unbend enough to hear Mystra out could be interpreted as indifference or coldness. My take on this, Helm had already failed Ao by letting the Tablets be stolen, so there was a certain amount of pressure upon him to not fail again.
The Mystra-Helm relationship was an interesting backdrop when a Mystran squire was placed with a Helmite knight, but you'll need to find out about that ICly.

- Lathander 'purged' Helm's lover Murdane in the ancient past apparently, I assume that this relates to the Dawn cataclysm which involved some less than sunny behaviour from the MorningLord. I'd be willing to bet that Helm might still be a little miffed about that.

Lathander: Paladins of the Morninglord are among the best-loved heroes of Faerun. They are loosely organized (along with other fighters devoted to the god) into a holy order called the Order of the Aster.
Within their own church, the paladins are frequently more conservative and concerned with the way things should be done than the clerics, who are often neutral rather than lawful.

Tyr: Paladins of the Just God are front-line warriors in the battle against evil and untruth, and often lead military and adventuring groups to further their cause.

Ilmater: Paladins of the Broken God guard the weak and use their healing powers on any who need them. They are not shy about fighting evil, but they would rather pause to heal someone who is about to die
than sacrifice that life in order to pursue fleeing evil doers.

Interestingly here, Ilmater seeks to teach Tyr to live without his sight and to rely upon his feelings instead. A relationship which adds nice dimensions to the Triad formed by Ilmater and Torm's service to Tyr.

Kelemvor: Paladins of the Lord of the Dead devote themselves to hunting and killing undead. No real surprises there, hehe. I also favour the consoling aspect of my faith, helping the living to come to terms with the loss of loved ones and ensuring that the dead rest easily.

All of the above snippets can be found in various places on the web, Wikipedia is an excellent place to start looking over your deity as much of it is taken from canon sources such as Faiths & Avatars or Pantheons.

enjoy

Mitchell · Post by **Mitchell** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:48 pm

Mele wrote:Same with Mystra and Helm. :O

I asked ICly during the Mystran faithing process if the church of Mystra holds any hard feelings toward Helm, because I originally intended to work this into my roleplay, but I was told outrightly no - but I have seen different sources that say Mystrans as well as quite a lot of other people of the realms dislike and distrust Helm's faith. From the debacle of Maztica to the huge dead magic zones of the Helmlands.

Do we follow the canon relationship between the churches of Mystra and Helm, or does FK deviate a little here?

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:53 am

Kelemvor wrote: Helm: Paladins of the Watcher prefer to guard against evil or slay it outright rather than work to heal its damages. They seem rigid and uninterested in helping others.

They who are they guarding other then themselves? How does one RP this in game without seeming like all they care about is hack and slash?

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:19 am

I guess this is what I see as the difference:

Torm: Paladins of the True God defend the weak, defeat evil, and uphold the high moral standards required for servants of a god who serves bright and righteous Tyr.

They save the weak. They defeat evil. They are the bright and brillant ones who are known to love their swords more than anyone else. (Not neccisarily hack and slash. More like prep school boys vs. the public school boys of Tempus, ect.) They are more social, which may range from having the attitude that because they save people, they deserve acclaim? (Maybe.)

They would be more Lancelot centric in my brain. All glory and pomp and happy go luckism. But damn shiney and good at their job.

Helm: Paladins of the Watcher prefer to guard against evil or slay it outright rather than work to heal its damages. They seem rigid and uninterested in helping others.

Unlike Tormites who see evil as it appears upon state, I say Helmites assume that the evil is coming for them anyways,a nd take steps to prepare. Making sure there are guards on the gate. The men and women who probably sleep with the weapon beneath their pillow plus a spare one. The token is to always be prepared, kinda like the shiney boyscouts. Helmites, they have to be prepared so much that it carries over to their appearances, having the apperance of being "perfect". Which includes the way they speak and socialize. They do not want to.. stir the bucket into something they are unprepared for.

For an example, Galahad. Shiney,b right, brillant, perfect.

They are related in terms of style, but the Tormites are more, "We are here to save the day... " *insert hair flip* While the Helmites were already there, and had flipped the hair three weeks earlier when they were making the castle wall.

But that's just me.

Jaenoic · Post by **Jaenoic** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:04 am

I believe in 2nd ed Torm and Helm were rivals but in 3rd ed they became chummy chummy? Or maybe the other way around. At least that's what I remember reading in my sourcebooks but sadly I don't have them with me.

It's my opinion that in FK there's no reason or base for Helmite/Tormish rivalrly; on the contrary I only see every reason for their faiths to be friendly, if not allied.

They who are they guarding other then themselves? How does one RP this in game without seeming like all they care about is hack and slash?

While Tormish and Helmites are very close in the whole protection aspect, I think Helm more embodies a strict, no-nonsense sense of duty. "I *must* protect my charge at all costs, whether it costs me my life." To a Helmite, his or her duty is everything. Never break your word and all that.

A Tormite may feel the same sense of duty, but just not emphasize it as much. A Tormite would protect a person, but more so because that person needs protection. In other words, to a Helmite one's word and honor as a guardian is paramount; to a Tormish their sense of compassion and service as a guardian is most important.

Just two different paths up the same mountain, so to speak. But this is just my opinion. Oh yeah, and Ilmateri rock.

(That's not an opinion, that's a fact)

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:30 am

Mitchell wrote:
Mele wrote:Same with Mystra and Helm. :O
I asked ICly during the Mystran faithing process if the church of Mystra holds any hard feelings toward Helm, because I originally intended to work this into my roleplay, but I was told outrightly no - but I have seen different sources that say Mystrans as well as quite a lot of other people of the realms dislike and distrust Helm's faith. From the debacle of Maztica to the huge dead magic zones of the Helmlands.

Do we follow the canon relationship between the churches of Mystra and Helm, or does FK deviate a little here?

Helm killed Mystra, in all of my research I've ever seen it's said that relations between Mystrans and Helmites have never been of a friendly manner and such. They're not faith enemies or anything. But if a FM told you otherwise, it must be. :)

Lukon · Post by **Lukon** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:58 am

Of course, this could be another one of those areas where 'modern' ideas that prejudice is wrong come into the fore. When really, we're all prejudge NOW, in one way or another, we just like to assert 'equality' onto it, though we behave and expect vastly different things from sorts of people, and rightly so. Just don't base your life on it.

Mystrans: Protect the Weave and the Art. Period. Even the lady herself has done some...sketchy things, as far as rules go, for that purpose.

Helmites(hard to keep a straight face on that one): Protect and guard what you have sworn with your life, your honor, and your pride. Period. Even if it could be argued that the world is better off if you just let someone in, where do those 'allowances' stop, and who decides what's right? You have a job to do.

Mystra: I'm just doing my thing!
Helm: Me, too. (Kills Mystra.)

So, yeah...even in their philosophies, there's room for significant friction. Add their history, and you've got more motivation than some of the religious hostility, up to outright bloodshed, in Christian history. (NOT dissing Christianity, since that would be self-wounding.)

Rennick · Post by **Rennick** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:05 am

I'm glad that this was brought up because its something that I've given a lot of thought to with my Helmite character, but I've not really been able to ask all my questions ICly.

With my Helmite char, I RP him being friendly toward the church of Torm...as many members of that faith were kind to him from the start and have become close friends...but i keep it in my RP that he is interested in healing the rift between the two.

I also keep in mind the coolness that exists between Helm's church and that of Lathander and Mystra. Though I believe that Helmites might still be cold to Lathander after Helm's lover was slain in the Dawn Cataclysm, for the sake of RPing with others I normally have him behave civilly toward Lathanderites (though none have ever really gotten on his bad side yet to bring up the old grudge). It seems to me that such a grudge is more between the gods, than the followers of those two gods.

Also, I know why the church of Mystra would be cold to those of Helm, but I don't see it the other way around. I imagine that Helmites would not hold harsh feelings against Mystra, since their god was not the one slain.

...its 2 AM and I've been working all day, so I hope this makes sense and doesn't just sound like jibberish.

Mitchell · Post by **Mitchell** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:48 am

Mele wrote:Helm killed Mystra, in all of my research I've ever seen it's said that relations between Mystrans and Helmites have never been of a friendly manner and such. They're not faith enemies or anything. But if a FM told you otherwise, it must be.

Just to clarify, it wasn't a faith manager, just a member of the faith who was given the task of instructing my character. So their word isn't necessarily Mystran law - they could be right, they could be mistaken.

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:21 pm

For all those with characters in the faiths discussed above, please note that there is nothing binding or obligatory about those reference points I noted. They are merely interesting facts that can be used for roleplay.

Canon references have a habit of changing or even disappearing when editions are updated or new products are created by our friends at WotC. There is also the fact that Forgotten Kingdoms is not always completely parallel with the FR timeline.

Yes, these are 'known facts' and part of the history of the realms, but how your character uses them is entirely up to yourself. For example, the recent squire roleplay and the attempts to have group lessons conducted means that squires from several very different faiths would be around the Halls together and likely 'doing their homework' and visiting the city together. Such friendships will often ignore inter-faith problems.

There is also the fact that unless you are a policy maker within your faith, and here on Forgotten Kingdoms that usually means the deity or faith managers, then interpretation is bound to occur about what a particular event or historical reference actually entailed.

So, use the references, but dont be a slave to them unless you want a particular piece of information to form a key part of your character's mindset or history.

Oh, and I enjoyed the Arthurian references to how certain knights could best demonstrate the various faiths we have now. Though I'd have to say that Lancelot was a Lathanderite, they're the hair-flickers...

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:46 pm

Oh, and I enjoyed the Arthurian references to how certain knights could best demonstrate the various faiths we have now. Though I'd have to say that Lancelot was a Lathanderite, they're the hair-flickers...

You can blame my live action role playing game for the Arthurian reference. It was the only thing that came to mind that was handy and had a variety of characters that were all knights and simular that I figured everyone would be able to reconize the difference of.

And besides, I dunno. Lathanderites kinda remind me of those monks that train the dogs. (No offense!) They are always so skippy and happy and they sing and bake bread.

But somewhere below the monestary, you just know they are packing guns and weapons JUUUUUUUUUUUUUST in case. They are not going to let their monastary get burned AGAIN in the twenty first century.

Geneveve · Post by **Geneveve** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:52 pm

Mitchell wrote: Just to clarify, it wasn't a faith manager, just a member of the faith who was given the task of instructing my character. So their word isn't necessarily Mystran law - they could be right, they could be mistaken.

hehe...and she could be completely wrong based on how she has seen others of the faith act towards Helmites...and what she was told when she asked the exact same question

So who knows...

Hrosskell · Post by **Hrosskell** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:26 pm

I've seen a lot of Helm interaction with this post, and apologise that there hasn't been as much Torm response - or, for that matter, defense. It seems Torm has been portrayed as a pretty boy, a kind've non-chalant do-gooder. I do not think this is the case, nor do I think any of the people who have played a long term, hardcore Tormtar has displayed it as such. When referencing "duty", I would definitely not say that Helm is more concentrated on "duty" than Torm, especially when the first thing I was taught about Torm is that he is the god of that very word. Follow that up with the Fourfold Duties, that all faithmembers are asked to abide by, as well as the Penance of Duty that the paladins call their own, you'd think we'd have more reputation for being a little straight-laced (not that I ever thought -I- would be arguing for straight-lacity). Not to turn this into a contest; I play characters from both relgions, and play them both very similarly. Both are well-mannered, tight-lipped (out of necessity, not hostility), and very concentrated on their roles within the church, comparable to a military organization. I have always seen it though that my Helmite is there to guard more than anything; he is not a healer, and is not focused on repairing. If he fails his mission, he has failed. It is discarded. My Tormtar, on the other hand, is a healer. He works to be able to go to war as easily as a Helmite, but he strives to protect and aid; maybe something to do with Torm's relationship with Ilmater, who surely has the same affect on him as he does Tyr.

Astriya · Post by **Astriya** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:51 pm

I am struggling with the decision of going Torm or Helm. As of now I have had much more interaction with followers of Helm. I have yet to run into anyone that follows Torm or knows a follower of Torm. This is unfortunate because my character desires to see followers of Torm in action. Her desire is the heal and protect and I'm not sure which faith would fit better.

I am leaning toward chosing Helm because I cannot even find a follower of Torm to enquire to and the only temple I have found information about is south of Zhentil Keep which is very far from Waterdeep.

Nedylene · Post by **Nedylene** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:56 pm

Torm could use priestesses. There is an excellent ranger of Torm that still plays and (If I am not allowed to say this someone remove it) I might send a PM to Kregor to see if he would be willing to schedule a time to "meet" you. Another option is to post a note on the IC boards saying you are inquiring to meet those of Torm and see what falls your way.

Jaenoic · Post by **Jaenoic** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:56 pm

I can think of four Tormish PCs and one hopeful who have logged in the past three or four days alone, so maybe it is just a conflict of time zones or bad luck. There are even more characters who know a Tormite, ask around and I'm sure you'll run into one.

Astriya · Post by **Astriya** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:21 pm

At the moment I play around GMT +1 during the day as my evenings are taken by my family. I do lurk at the market square a fair bit.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:14 am

No problem with me in the recommendation. I made a post to this affect in another thread. Kregor is more than happy to speak, RP and etc with those who seek the Tormish faith, and he is a devout, if somewhat reformist leader of the faith, and he might make you leave Market Square to have his audience.

Sadly, real life situations of the present have made it such that I can't sit and camp on the game as much as I used to, with ANY of my characters, really, so please, do PM me, and I'll make efforts to be online for anyone. I can make time, its just a matter of shifting it around.

I do intend to put together a True Resurrection celebration as well sometime soon, once I've finished up some improvements to the Temple of Torm's Coming in Tantras, to liven up all the stuffy crusts a little, and bring in some devices for RP between members of a hierarchical faith, so I'll post that when it is ready to happen.

Torm vs Helm

Torm vs Helm

Struggling with decision.