Racial Pantheons, Head of the Pantheon and "Subordinate

[Vibius]

Hello all.

I would ask something to the people to know the feasibility of something related to Faith/Race specific RP.

My question is that if you can worship the head of a racial pantheon, representing your adherence to the culture of the race and your respect to the head of the pantheon and the pantheon as a whole but being particularly devout of a "subordinate" of the head of the pantheon.

An example of this would be a dwarf that "in game terms" is a follower of Moradin, and respects his teachings and the dwarf culture, but is particularly devout of Dumathoin and is an exemplar of the teachings of the last one.

I don't know if this even possible or is something that should be applied for, of course this couldn't be possible for those deities/pantheons that would like to kill the head of the pantheon.

Any thoughts?

[Horace]

You can app for uncoded deities. The only problem you'll run into is if you're playing a priest...in which case you'll probably want to stick to officially serving Moradin but being fond of Dumathoin's ways

[Dargeth]

As far as in game apps, as far as I know you would just send an app to follow an uncoded deity. As for rp concerns, using your example, practically all gold and shield dwarves in Faerun revere Moradin as the Soulforger, creator of the dwarven race, much as most elves revere Corellon and most orcs Grumsh. But many dwarves do follow other dwarven deites like Haela, Clanggedin and Dumathoin. It depends on their interests. Luck in battle for Haela, battle in general for Clanggedin, secrets and not disturbing those secrets for Dumathoin. Hope that helps.

[Kirkus]

With racial uncoaded deities I have had an idea floating about my brain for a while now. Lets say Bob wanted to follow sehanine moonbow as an elf. With the current system you basically get nothing but a symbol and thats about it if I understand the system correctly. But what if, as an elf following an god of the elven pantheon, we let Bob follow 'Sehanine Moonbow' but have everything be governed under Corellon. Handle everything else through renames and the like. Perhaps, for the effort Bob has to write out a small area, give it some mobs for Corellon to use to cut down the burden or something.

This way we can even have working pantheons full of churches with followers.

[Velius]

With racial uncoaded deities I have had an idea floating about my brain for a while now. Lets say Bob wanted to follow sehanine moonbow as an elf. With the current system you basically get nothing but a symbol and thats about it if I understand the system correctly. But what if, as an elf following an god of the elven pantheon, we let Bob follow 'Sehanine Moonbow' but have everything be governed under Corellon. Handle everything else through renames and the like. Perhaps, for the effort Bob has to write out a small area, give it some mobs for Corellon to use to cut down the burden or something.

This way we can even have working pantheons full of churches with followers.

Like the idea Kirkus, it'd be a great boost to uncoded deities.

[Oghma]

I'm more against it on the basis that uncoded deities represent a unique roleplay opportunity and not a chance to serve a deity without actually serving them. When you apply to follow an uncoded deity one of the first things made clear is that in doing so, you waive the usage of spells and abilities reserved for coded deities. That factor allows registered deity membership to come first for those that could not otherwise accept that uncoded deities are for roleplay mainly. You are free to apply for uncoded deity status. But it will be uncoded which means:

• You will be granted a symbol and faith quest reflecting your choice of deity.
  
  You will have the option to spend coin or glory later on to create items reflecting your unique choice depending on the ic or ooc actions of imms.
  
  Currently a large project was launched. The minor shrines and temples being designed by a large number of players will allow for some singular items of several non registered deities.

This means that anything out of the ordinary beyond the regular applications for non registered faiths will need to be applied for and may not be granted.

This does not mean this discussion has to end. I am just clearing up any misconceptions about the current process. This idea is still valid for discussion.

[Orplar]

On a side note,

What would happen for a priest that wanted to follow an uncoded deity?

[Horace]

you'd stay a priest forever, as far as spell selection - i believe

[Kregor]

Without a faith, you would essentially be an unguilded priest. That is:

• Unable to cast spells over 5th level,
  
  Limited to the selection of spells that are shared by both clerics and druids, at the spell level it is highest for either (in other words, Cure Serious, for example, is a 3rd level cleric spell, 4th level druid spell. An unguilded priest would get it as a 4th level spell). This excludes all of the infliction spells, and a good deal of the cleric's offensive spell capability,
  
  No domain spells (since, of course, this is determined by guild and faith.)
  
  No special abilities of either clerics or druids (shapechange, turn undead, etc).
  
  Weapons and armor proficiency of the druid (limited weaponry, medium armor). If you want more, it will cost you feats.

As it was said previously, RPing an alt faith is just that, an RP application. Consider yourself a supporting role to add to the flavor of the rich pantheon that is in Faerun. You will never be a pwner priest with an alt faith, and it's not for someone that's unable or unwilling to accept it. Perhaps if you play your part well, you might earn a skill/spell or two down the road if the imms saw the RP worthy of it, but there's no guarantee to that. You can still ward, and heal, and even raise the dead (a noteable exception made in FK from D&D, where druids get no respawning prayers except reincarnation, and a divergence made to allow alt-faithed priests this ability)

Aside from priests, there's little tradeoff to alt-faith a character. Frankly, I've little use for favor and supplicated items, as my faith choices are usually the wrong classes to really benefit from faith items anyway - imagine my ranger wearing all the plate armor that Torm has seen fit to bestow me, or an elven wizard wearing chainmail (elven metal or not, still equals spell failure chance). Sure, you can metagame just the right class/faith combinations to reap maximum benefit from a faith... nothing wrong with that, in essence; it just means that person is not likely the ideal candidate for alt-faithing.

[Kirkus]

Horace just struck hard upon my point. You could be a level 50 priest of Shargaas, a member of the Orcish pantheon but still only get the beginning spells. Where as this would open them up to higher spells. Then they could use their coin and glory later on perhaps swithching spells, for Shargass more closely resembles Mask or Shar.

But in this instance they would interact with the rest of their tribe, for they usually hide their affiliation.

I am not suggesting that Gruumsh have to go out of his way, but include where icly applicable, and give favor when necessary. Basically Gruumsh in this instance, Corellon in the earlier post, serve as a way of opening up a door to some, not all, of the benefits of being a follower of a coded god.

You could almost think of it as this, Talos is know by Bhelros in Calimshan and Kozah among the Bedine. Talos is actually kinda schitzophorenic, split personality. This idea would be like coding Kirkus to follow Talos and coding Gralock to follow Bhelros. This idea is close but further spread out if you get my meaning....gods of the same pantheon....

[Elenthis]

I've always been of the opinion that priests shouldnt necessarily HAVE to follow a specific deity to get the full spell selection. In D&D a priest can follow a "cause" or "the gods" or a multitude of other things, and still get a full spell selection. Though I realise that FK is very firmly attached to the close relationships the mortals have with thier patrons, I do think we lose a lot of the "human" flavor by making the following of deities so integral to all players, priests especially. So often do I see characters right out of the font who are clearly made with a deity in mind. About one of three, I can look at and say in my mind... "maskite", "Mystran", "tempurian" ect.

Anyhow...to digress less, what I think would solve the problem both for "cookie cutter" clerics and uncoded clerics, I think there should be a "RP awarded" pre-coded null deity. This deity would allow priests access to a limited list of spells up to thier maximum potential. This would not be a list equal to a coded deities list, but a good mid-way point so lvl 50 priests of "no one in particular" wouldnt be useless in coded scenarios. ALSO, it would be usable for uncoded deities, so that its a simple as assigning a template to said priests once thier faith-quest is complete.

....the end.

[Kirkus]

The way I understand the racial pantheons, most of the race would honor all of the gods of the pantheon. They might dedicate their lives to one aspect of the pantheon but would still honor all the rest of the pantheon. I could be wrong, thats just how I see it. Now for us, we have, in most cases, the head of these pantheons coded. Simply put these were the easy choice since they would be, the most recognizable, most well known, and most populated churches. For instance, Corellon, Gruumsh, etc..

The reason I suggested using the coded gods was that if bob the pc who wants to follow Aerdrie faenya of the elven pantheon the place he is gonna get the most logical help would be Corellon. Icly he would be offering up some prayers to Corellon already. It also separates who is in charge of the non coded elven priests from the non coded drow priests, from the non coded orc priests and so on.

It may sound like more work for some but look at it this way, your not going to do any big time consuming rp for one character, but it would be easy to find ways to tie in the non coded churches with the coded ones from the same pantheon.

[Velius]

My opinion on this is...

Uncoded deities shouldn't get domain spells, but that doesn't mean they should only be limited to 5th level prayers and lower. You are destined to be underpowered if you become a priest of an uncoded faith. You won't be able to do your job, especially with you are level 50 (try to heal the fighter with a bunch of cure light spells). They should atleast have access to 9th level prayers once they are level 50.

[Kirkus]

Tell me why they have to be limited? Why should they have to accept being 'destined to be underpowered'? Why do they have to be 2nd class characters? Aren't they the ones that are getting out of the cookie cutters?

Im not saying that they need special attention, held above all others or anything. I just think that they should be given the full spectrum of their potential, and be placed under the care of a deity that they would be interacting with regularly anyway.

I guess I am just looking for a reason to hold these characters back?

[Horace]

The problem lies in the workload. There are so so many deities in faerun...what is there, 70 just in the human pantheon? Then you talk about the elven, orc, goblin, gnome, halfling, giant, etc - then you go into the all the different regional gods that exist still on Faerun...all the chult stuff and demigods of uthgar and rashemen and thay. It gets kahrazy. And that's just one continent...there are like 4 others with just as many.

No one is saying that your priest can't someday become be a part of an uncoded deity and keep their prayers. I can think of one right now. But if there was no mechanical disadvantage, people would all just take uncoded gods just for the novelty of being the only one. Tigger syndrome.

If you're a nonhuman priest, just worship the entire pantheon. Your racial head gives divine magic...they can give it to you if you solely worship them or favor their lesser who embodies a more specific ideal. Human deities you can't do that because Ao is the official head, and he notoriously doesn't care until things go terribly wrong - Ao's priest don't get divine magic.

Use a rename to get a fancy something that bears the symbol of the lesser known, and roleplay serving both...unless of course the secondary god is diametrically opposed to the racial head, but that'd be rare.


You can't expect people to go out of their way to hand change every single time, because the uncoded gods are uncoded. It'd literally take setting it individually every time...only for a PC to stop playing 4 hours later. Make the volunteers want to help you. If you work at it to the point where they honestly feel obligated to bump your PC mechanically, that's satisfying on both ends...the players and the administration

[Kirkus]

But your assuming there is going to be some crazy rampage of non-coded deity following. There is still the application process. There might already be a kismet check, and if there isn't there can be. It isn't crossing any line to say 'hey, we want a little sign of dedication before we allow you to do something that will take our time and effort.

Also, my aim when I suggested this was only for the racial deities. It adds like 6 or 7 deities to one Imms job description. Hey it would allow each of the racial Imms to add some diversity to their rp. That sounds like fun! Lets add 4 or 5 different ways we can rp with our racial pc's. Dosn't sound to odious to me.

Now correct me if I am wrong but I don't think we need to be worrying about the four other continents just yet, the last I checked we barely have thay and rashemen. I could be wrong, it has happened before. It just seems to me that the size of the problem is getting blown out of proportion.