[SKILL] Snoop

[Vibius]

This is a thieves-only skill.

This skill would allow a thief to look in a direction and if successful, the thief would see the room description, the mobs and the objects there like if he had entered that room then he view would return to the room in which he is, this skill couldn't be used in the wilderness map because the length that represents a single tile.

It would make thieves better scouts and would make them more desired in parties when going to potentially dangerous places.

[Selveem]

I like this idea. Not based in D&D at all the way it'd have to be coded on the MUD, but still very cool nevertheless.

I do believe, though, that "snoop" is a command Imms type to see what a player sees: what they type (for instance: "look <direction>"), the outcome of what they type, etc. Basically, the Imm sees everything the player does.

Why not just name it scout?

The only thing I worry about is wizards calling foul. There's already two spells available to them that are basically the same thing: clairvoyance/clairaudience and arcane eye.

[Vibius]

Unlike those spells this skill would grant a quick glimpse of the room and after getting it the "view" of the character would return to the room in which he is, it would not allow to hear characters speaking in that room if someone says something in the same moment that he scouts that room.

The idea behind this skill is making this class more efficient scouts in a party, being able to warn their party members of potentially dangerous problems that lie ahead.

[Raona]

I think this is a great idea, Vibius. Scouting should not be the unique purview of the wizardly class - thieves should be able to do it too, in their own manner. I'd up the ante a little, though - if unsuccessful in their scout attempt, there would be a chance that the creatures there would move to the square the thief was scouting from, to track down the source of the noise they heard.

I'd also suggest the same skill could be used in wilderness squares by rangers, albeit with a longer lag to reflect the time it would take them to scout some 30 km.

[Japcil]

It can still be called Snoop. When a block of code executes it can run a check for less than or greater than 51 (a level we dont use) If higher it executes the imm command. If lower, the skill command.

[Selveem]

It can still be called Snoop. When a block of code executes it can run a check for less than or greater than 51 (a level we dont use) If higher it executes the imm command. If lower, the skill command.

Veddy naas!

[Mele]

I kind of feel like this cheapens clairvoyance.

Not only that, sneak + hide = snooping on people. Thieves have the tools to do this already.

[Vibius]

Sneak+Hide is ideal if you want to be in a place spying on people/stealing/pulling levers without being noticed

Snoop is ideal if you want to see that room for unexpected dangers.

And wizards have the spells "find traps" and "knock" that overlap in the area of expertise of thieves causing potentially more harm that being able to snoop

The role of "the party scout" has always has been of the rogue and to some exent of rangers, I don't see adding the skill to thieves stealing the spotlight of the wizard class and it could improve the overall fun and desirebality of thieves in parties.

[Harroghty]

I'll second Raona and suggest this also be offered to rangers. I pulled my copy of MCWP 3-11.3 "Scouting and Patrolling" and it lists the following as the required skills for scouting:

Recognize terrain features.
Read a map and determine direction.
Practice and implement the principles of cover and concealment.
Fully utilize movement and route selection.
Know the enemy.
Observe and report information accurately.
Select routes and move through numerous types of terrain.

Yes, this is military scouting but how different is that than scouting for an adventuring party (usually a belligerent expedition)? If that doesn't all sound like a ranger's purview then I'm not sure what does.

[Vibius]

I didn't thought in that but it makes sense, leaving the thief class the only class that can snoop in non-nature areas in the same way they can't hide there.

[Tobias]

I think bards should be able to do this as well. The bard class is basically a modified rogue class that was made to be a jack of all trades. Also for most people to pass information from one place to the next and gather information. What better way for a bard than to snoop?

[Vibius]

I don't think that they should have it that would miss the point of the bard class (not bard RP which is awesome and entirely different), they are jack of all the trades and masters of none, if you want to play a character specialized in stealth, play a thief or to a very lesser extent a ranger.

Of course you can play a stealthy bard (They have sneak and hide) but having the edge in anything (including stealth) is something against the philosophy of the bard class.

[Tobias]

Thats why bards lack in combat prowess. Any bard if you put it into DnD statistics can have just as many slots in sneak and hide yes. Also in listen, spot and sleight of hand. When it comes to information gathering this is what a bard does. Thieves can do it as a side effect of them being able to get into places in an adventure setting not even a bard can. While a bard can bluff talk and sneak his way into a kings throne room with ease.

[Selveem]

Tobias, you're right but you forget thief gets more skill points than Bards. Bards would then have to choose to neglect something they really need in favor of getting that extra skill as high as a rogue.

Bards are very different from rogues and should not be treated the same. Sure, they can work as a rogue in a pinch, but they don't have the full support that a rogue does.

A bard's primary stat is Charisma. He then needs fighting stats for saving his own butt like dex and the like..

For me, when I play a rogue, my primary stat is int. All those skills to fill.. *Drools*

[Velius]

I kind of feel like this cheapens clairvoyance.

Not only that, sneak + hide = snooping on people. Thieves have the tools to do this already.

I'd like to add to what Vibius said earlier. Snoop is a great idea that I can definately imagine a thief having (Spy guilds!) and I don't think they shouldn't get the skill because it cheapens another. If we continue to use that logic, doesn't the hide skill kinda cheapen the invis spell? Doesn't that magic sword of fire kinda cheapen a fireball? I like magic weapons, and I can't imagine a thief without hide, same as the fact I can't imagine a thief (let alone a member of the spy guild) without the ability to spy/scout. My 2 cents, and grats on the great idea Vibius.

[Mele]

My thief spies -all the time- with sneak and hide.

Those skills are not solely intended for stealing.

[Harroghty]

Vibius, please correct me if this isn't the case.

It seems to me like the skill suggested here is not intended for spying but for scouting ahead. The aim here is to observe terrain and the enemy for planning purposes. You are trying to anticipate dangers and conditions as opposed to trying to evaluate them first hand.

Like Vibius said:

Sneak+Hide is ideal if you want to be in a place spying on people/stealing/pulling levers without being noticed

Snoop is ideal if you want to see that room for unexpected dangers.

Sneak and hide work in town if you are trying to eavesdrop or to spy on someone, but no sensible person would just duck into the shadows and tip-toe around some decrepit castle you found out in the mountains (and certainly not after you found some bizarre creatures or something outside). This proposed skill would allow you to check ahead so that your group can make an informed decision about what's around that corner or, if Vibius likes adding rangers to this, what's over the next hill. You'd always stop on the military crest and look over before you went into the next valley. Sneaking or not.

[Hviti]

If a thief wants to know what's ahead, why not sneak and hide - not get a skill that acts like a pair of binoculars and gives them no-risk scouting abilities. Unless all rogues are farsighted imo they won't be able to make out that sort of detail from far away.

Also with sneak/hide there are actually possible consequences (you fail your check, the enemies attack) rather than just a free look w/o any possibility of being attacked. Spells like clairvoyance are supposed to be lower risk because they don't put the caster in the adjacent room (if they are noticed, the person has to come get them). If you have to get close enough to see details but aren't using a spell, imo you should be in the actual room.

[Selveem]

Hviti,

I'm not sure I get your point.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but there are no risks associated with using arcane eye or Clairvoyance/Clairaudience. In regular D&D, there are a number of things that can occur during both events.

Arcane Eye creates an invisible sensor and requires a concentration check every single round, requires 10 full minutes to cast (6 seconds = 1 round of combat, just to put it into perspective), and only lasts 1 min/level. (Maximum distance travelled [at 300 feet per minute] is 6,000 ft).

Clairvoyance/Clairaudience also creates an invisible sensor, takes the same amount of time to cast, lasts the same amount of time, but doesn't move. The difference is that it can go only as far as 1200 ft maximum distance.

Oh, and by the way, everything seen through both should be as seen through a human eye. You don't get to see through darkness nor does your 'detect invisibility' spell translate to benefit either sensor.

None of these disadvantages are appropriately reflected in FK because mobiles do not react as they might normally.

In the game, there are plenty of advantages that casters currently enjoy over D&D. For one, you don't see a caster casting for 100 rounds just to cast a single spell. Two, since time is accelerated in FK, even if it did last 100 rounds it wouldn't take long. If melee at the same pace that current time does, I would assume everyone who isn't a melee class would be complaining pretty hard.

Basically, what I'm getting at is I don't see the reason behind 'not' implementing this skill solely because casters may feel slighted or lessened. Those who have casters know they have plenty of things going for them.

[Harroghty]

Let's take a vignette from an average dungeon in FK as an example to answer your question, Hviti...

The party is in room A, which is a bedroom, and there is a hallway (room B) that leads to another room (room C). If you were hiding out in room A and wanted to know what the route to room C looked like would you have to sneak into the hall to find out? Couldn't you just go to a corner of room A and look out the door and down the hall?

You're scouting out the hallway without sneaking through it and can now turn to your party leader and say, "I saw a long hallway with one door at the far end. It's a rickety wood floor so we'll have to be careful with all this weight. There's a skeleton knight in the hallway."

You've scouted the room without entering it and at no risk beyond (as I think Vibius mentioned in an earlier post) the chance of that skeleton catching a glimpse of you trying to look into the hallway and coming after you. You, the thief, have advised your party and been an asset to its success.