Feint - For Those Proficient In Combat

[Travis]

I am proposing the addition of the skill Feint.

This skill would be available to higher level thieves (bards?).
I'm not sure if I posted something about this before...

Anyways, I suppose it would be like gouge, only not as dirty.
It would trick your opponent with a false attack, exposing them to a sneak attack (backstab).

I think this would work like an effect (sort of like blind) but it would only last a round or two. Right now a similar effect can be achieved with gouge, only it's not always appropriate (especially in sparring situations) to stab someone's eyes. Additionally, it would provide a way for thieves to backstab against someone who is under the affects of True Sight.

I'm curious what others think about this. Personally, I think it would be a good, logical addition to thief skill set and a step towards making thieves what they should be.

[Selveem]

Are you looking for 'feint?' I'm not sure if that's what you want, but it kind of sounds like that. There was a thread on feint, I believe. I can't seem to search the forums to find it for you right now, but when I can I'll find it ASAP.

[Travis]

That is what I was looking for, and I have changed my post accordingly.

[Harroghty]

I agree very much with this suggestion but I have a recommendation for it. A feint is a very traditional move (particularly in modern sport fencing) with many variations, but it is still difficult to be able to stab someone in the back even for a very capable fencer (swordsman, bard, cutpurse, usw.).
I propose that success at this skill would allow you a "free" attack instead. The combatant who feints diverts his opponent and the opponent squanders his attack. I think it this would be in keeping with the spirit of the idea.

[Travis]

That makes sense to me, though I think it's important to keep in mind that backstab is essentially no longer backstab. It's more of a sneak attack, or hitting at a weak point. With a feint, it would make sense to me that an opponent's weak point would be exposed to attack... providing the attacker is fast/skilled enough.

[Glim]

Well... how about, instead, if you do a successful feint, your opponent loses his dexterity bonus to ac (flat footed) for one round. This would allow a sneak attack or simply an easier to hit opponent. This wouldn't necessarily have to be just for thieves, but they would be the ones who would benefit the most from it.

[Travis]

That sounds like what I was trying to get at. I suppose any who are proficient in fighting would be able to use that skill.
Hmmm.

[Selveem]

I am completely against the introduction of this skill. It would make Wisdom actually important in an IC sense! *gasp*

[Travis]

Psh. That would be horrible. I'll remove the post at once!
*stares at sky*

[Harroghty]

Glim's suggestion is good and makes sense but I feel that there should be some penalty to the attack of the one misled by the feint.

At the pace of swordplay you would likely go to defend against the feint, be hit by the attacker's diverted strike and then, at best, attack very awkwardly to answer it. You are not only upreparared to receive that one hit but you are off-balance and it is difficult to make your own next attack until you recover yourself.

Maybe some kind of modification to additional attacks (you only strike once per round) or some change to your "to-hit" modifiers would be appropriate for that next round (..in addition to defensive penalties)?

[Travis]

Seems like that would overpower the skill.

[Glim]

I kind of agree with Travis, I think that would be a bit too powerful. Getting hit by an attack without your dexterity bonus to AC (especially if you are getting hit by a thief's sneak attack) would hurt you enough that if you got a penalty to attack as well, it might actually be too much to recover from.

But, of course, this ability might need it's own coded skill to perform. Bluff is what it goes off of in D20, which is a bit hard of a skill to translate to the mud. It is opposed by Sense Motive, with your base attack bonus added to the roll, yet another skill that is hard to translate to a mud without an ever-present DM over your shoulder.

[Selveem]

Glim's suggestion is good and makes sense but I feel that there should be some penalty to the attack of the one misled by the feint.

I have to disagree with you as well, Harroghty.

By the reasoning I see in your example, every successful hit should add a negative penalty for the person to strike back. This would give a very enormous advantage (as if it didn't already) for the person who gets initiative.

[Travis]

Seems like one of those skills that would make melee characters a bit more up to par. Class balance, anyone?

[Selveem]

Dunno if I'd go that far, but it would definitely give more use to Wisdom.

[Travis]

Well, it would help thieves the most.
It would also definitely put wisdom to use, for the people being attacked and the attackers I would think. Dex + Wis checks?

[Selveem]

Feint is a double-edges sword, my friend. You say it would help Thieves most, but how many Thieves concentrate on high Wisdom in FK - much less in D&D. Most concentration is around Int and Dex. Most commonly, on FK, Thieves concentrate on Dex to stay alive. Feint used against a Thief takes away that Dex - they're gonna get hurt. I can see a crafty little builder like Dalvyn having fun with it.

That being said, I'd still like the skill in game as an option anyhow.

[Harroghty]

I think I maybe considered it too much in a real-world sense. Real swordplay is very much decided with quick, precise moves (even with weapons traditionally considered to be less precise in character).

For the sake of game balance it is probably better to only give the successful attacker who feints a stronger chance for that attack.

[Isaldur]

Feint
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

That's how PnP Feint works. I realize there's no bluff and sense motive skills but respectively bluff = Charisma, and Sense Motive = Wisdom. Dex has nothing to do with feinting at all.

[Travis]

Ahhhh. Thank you.