Wizards and Pregnancy

[Selveem]

I have to agree with Horace here. I must also admit I feel a bit disappointed that he has received little support in his beliefs.

I would like to offer that anything not specifically within the rulebooks being added _is_ a house rule. (That, of course, is not the only classification of a house rule).

I would also agree that the authors of the FR books are paid to write brilliant works of art to capture the characters in stories that give them flesh, not to study and understand everything about the way the actual game works.

What I would suggest is that those who wish to RP magic 'possibly affecting the birthing process' continue to do so. I think, apparently as Horace does, that this is a great idea. I don't agree that (without a house ruling by the Admins) this should be specifically how it should be RPed.

I believe that those who wish to RP this also take into consideration, when not pregnant, the idea of their 'possible harmful affects' being implemented into actual game code. I could see people casting 'Shadow Walk' assaulted by a horde of Shades when they accidentally slip through the wrong region of the Plane of Shadow - or worse, being captured there by someone just waiting for such a foolish adventurer. I would like those same people to think before casting 'Trollish Vigor' that there is a chance to permanently lower their charisma in doing so. Those same people who cast spells such as 'Gate' to imagine their character being drained of all stamina for a duration of time.

Still sound plausible? Sure, maybe, but I don't think we'd have so many willing to play casters.

[Rhianon]

Whatever happened to allowing people to make up their own minds about how to play their own character and not having a few people dictate how they should play them? This is suppose to be a game, to be fun, whatever happened to that part of it. It has become a thing out of control with all this "make it a life like as possible" Whatever happened to playing something just for the sake of playing and having a good time, without having to second guess if it was going to cause a problem with what others thought????

[Nysan]

Whatever happened to allowing people to make up their own minds about how to play their own character and not having a few people dictate how they should play them? This is suppose to be a game, to be fun, whatever happened to that part of it. It has become a thing out of control with all this "make it a life like as possible" Whatever happened to playing something just for the sake of playing and having a good time, without having to second guess if it was going to cause a problem with what others thought????

Agreed.

[Horace]

If you don't take into consideration what others in the game think, or the rules they play by, then you're not really being a part of a gaming community. And that's the whole point of a roeplaying mudd, to create a living breathing world where people actually care about their characters.

And if one person roleplays something intrinsically different than another person, something that isn't in the guideline of rules that we stick to...then it can cause an inconsistency. Which usually isn't a big deal til the two confront eachother and both have good reason to believe they are correct.

Lots of things are fun, where you can do fun things all the time without concern of how others feel or think. Not too many past times allow you to share your experience with others...it's something, in my opinion, should be nurtured and not dismissed. It's an aspect of this past time that makes it unique to other games.

I think the topic was created to address a foreseeable problem. Which is good, problems should be addressed! I don't think anyone here is trying to sabotage anyone other player's fun, just trying to make it more consistent...and thus more fun for everyone in the long run.

[Oghma]

If I were to base my response on the old system back before fall 2005 it would go like this:

Pregnant women of any class should not be doing anything to strain themselves and should rp their pregnancy accordingly to the principle that they are with child and therefore affected like real world pregnancies specify. They should avoid casting heavy spells or prayers and wearing heavy armours and campaigning in extended combat. People that fail to do this, may lose the privilege of participating in this rp and have their pregnant bellies revoked. Mystra listed a 2nd edition source that explained the realms had many revolutionary systems for accomplishing this feat through ic intervention as not to traumatize rp.

My problem with this old system is:
-Through history and fantasy there have been examples of pregnant women going to war
-Wizards may cast more spells during pregnancy or oppositely may retreat into isolation or holiday until the pregnancy cycle has been completed.

What I feel adequately shapes up the current world system of pregnancy post 2005:

Pregnant women vary greatly in race, size, build and health and phase: Some are capable of great feats of power and others are not. They should avoid things that would obviously harm their unborn children. Like wearing full platemail, which has not been conformed to fit them properly in their state ie. A breastplate will crush your belly, titanium or steel platemail will weigh you down and put a strain on your muscles and spine. Metal boots will crush your swelling feet into potatoes and you will NEVER be as pretty as you were before you were pregnant again! Wizards that use form altering spells like stone or polymorph may witness problems like children also growing stone skin (bowling balls, anyone?) Teleport being dangerous for children because of the added strain of extra passengers etc, etc. Polymorph resulting in children temporarily becoming ferrets etc etc. Regardless, this rp is made for rp, it is a thinking person's rp. If you are seen to treat it as an inconvenience or no rp at all, you may either lose the belly (If you do really bad violations) Or worse, you will never lose the belly, the pregnancy will persist until we are sure you are rping it appropriately.

The only rule that I feel is a constant is that "special roleplay is not a right. It is a priveledge." We work to give everyone the chance to obtain special rp's if they are possible and fair. We then expect them to understand the rp in full.

Whatever happened to allowing people to make up their own minds about how to play their own character and not having a few people dictate how they should play them? This is suppose to be a game, to be fun, whatever happened to that part of it. It has become a thing out of control with all this "make it a life like as possible" Whatever happened to playing something just for the sake of playing and having a good time, without having to second guess if it was going to cause a problem with what others thought????

In regards to pregnancy, this sort of rp died back in 2001 when two characters rp'd the following 1)getting pregnant in an hour suddenly and then in the next hour having the baby. That was ridiculous and made no sense for an rp oriented mud. So a new system was worked out that relied on those aspiring to have this rp to follow rules to make it as real as possible within the limitation of FR universe reality which is similar to earth based reality. The result was that the majority that participated had fun doing so and built up an interesting rp based on their experiences. We are not the time police, I don't work with Doctor Who (sadly) we are here to facilitate your rp and make sure that it is an rp you accept amid the details and difficulties it presents as well as the positive outcomes (a baby).

In that regard I am glad there are no real set rules and that pregnancy varies. Sometimes though you may be brought up on how you rp a pregnancy through echoes or logical results, It depends on the severity but mostly it acts as a reminder and really depends on the rp'rs themselves. They may be asked to stop using speed dash if they are very pregnant, they may be asked why they are wearing heavy armour, or why they have used spells that would in all respects harm their precious cargo. We like to believe that anything which occurs in a roleplay based game through well, roleypay will be the result of a well thought out move, we trust those that successfully apply and recieve this rp to make decisions that facilitate it. And when the rp is over they reap the rewards of such a well played out experience.

(Disclaimer: Just because I have taken the time to post my opinions does not mean they are official policy. Official policy will find its way into the Howto and Policy section of the forum. I am only providing perspective based on my experiences and observations as an active participator in the mud and not just the forums.)

[Nysan]

I agreed with Rhianon's comment because I strongly believe in self-developed RP regarding certain game aspects, child-bearing being a good example. I believe that if a player wants to step up and take on a unique RP situation, like motherhood, the RP details should be in the hands of said player... not a written-in-stone standard of how to be pregnant. It has nothing to do with not wanting to share experiences with other players or discuss the aspect. It has everything to do with developing your character as you see fit.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against admins (or lesser extent, other players) commenting or reacting to the behavior of this kind of RP. (Oghma's mention of platemail, dashing, ect for example) In-game actions generating in-game reactions is the way of life. The idea of of some "this is how you should do it" step by step list for special RP bothers me however. Each race, each person would approach a special RP like pregnancy differently and thats how it should be. *shrug*

[Rhianon]

In case you haven't noticed, women today even when pregnant tend to do what they want, ride horses, jog, work up until they deliver, even way back when women plowed fields, and did what they had to do to survive, and it didn't hurt them at all. So all this "Molly coddling" because someone else thinks that they shouldn't do something is not what real life is all about at all. You want Real Life, then look around and see just how the world is working. Get away from the computer and get outside your small world and see what Real Life is really all about.Yes there are rules and regulations, but for the most part people do what they have to do to survive. To many people telling everyone else how to life their life is what is wrong with this world today, let's not bring it into a game where everything is fantasy.

[Horace]

It's just a brain storming topic...ironically during topics like these many ideas come forth. Surely not everyone who has a different idea than you needs to get a life.

I mean, I could probably use one. But not everyone!

[Nedylene]

Nothing I posted was meant as "It should be this way".. As Horace said, a brainstorming topic and my opinion of how I feel for it.

[Oghma]

Exactly, no one is here to tell you what to do exactly, rather we are more than happy to facilitate a properly rp'd response to a situation where it fits. Anyway, try to curtail some of the venom in this forum, it is just a constructive place to generate ideas, not point fingers or accusations.

[Nysan]

not point fingers or accusations.

You started it!

Seriously, didn't intend for anything I posted to be taken as anything more than my opinion... a little annoying perhaps, but not intended to offend. I might get a bit ruffled in keeping as much freedom in special RP in the hands of players, but not trying to tick anyone off.

[Selveem]

Wizards that use form altering spells like stone or polymorph may witness problems like children also growing stone skin (bowling balls, anyone?) Teleport being dangerous for children because of the added strain of extra passengers etc, etc. Polymorph resulting in children temporarily becoming ferrets etc etc.

Just out of curiosity, are you stating that as an Imm if you saw someone using polymorph as a wizard, you would possibly impose a detrimental affect upon the child?

If so, then I would argue that the policy is already set and magic is deemed harmful to the child.

Also, I am curious as to what grounds this judgement has been formed?

Stoneskin has no lingering affects. Polymorph does not, either. Teleport only possibly due to the chance of a 'bad teleport.'

The references and materials provided by D&D mention nothing of this sort. And, if these possible lingering affects can harm a child within the womb, I argue that these lingering affects should harm the wizards even if not pregnant.

Until the child is born, it is still 'one' with its mother. They are treated as one person. If not, couldn't I cast summon on a child out of its mother? No, you can't. At least, there's nothing in the rules that support it.

Personally, I think the idea or requiring any ruling is just ridiculously silly and unnecessary.

As Rhianon pointed out, this is a game; stop taking it so seriously. Yes, the game needs rules, but not for every tiny thing. If someone wants to roleplay being worried casting bulls strength on themselves while pregnant will empower their child to break free of the imprisoning womb, fine. It's their roleplay.

I believe far too much time is being made into tiny rules and how everything should be roleplayed that one must take a month to read over all the forum posts and in-game help files just to roleplay a single character 'properly' which (in my opinion) takes all the fun out of just enjoying a FANTASY.

Thanks.

[Mele]

I somehow entirely missed this thread, and I haven't honestly read all of it.

I agree with what Nedylene said earlier, with each example of each transportation spell and what it means and why it may be bad.

I absolitely adore the pregnancy roleplay. With four under my belt I'm definately no where near ready to stop having/enjoying them. When Mele was pregnant I was very new to the game and I took a LOT of time researching FR pregnancies / d&d pregnancies etc. I remember, in the application I sent in I even included the link of four websites I'd read up on it on, to show that I had indeed done my research.

One of those sites I read said the common practice was to use no magic, nor to have any magic cast upon them.

I'm not saying this is law -at all-. As Mele I was very very much abiding by this. I felt that Mele would be very careful, and respectful of the Weave to her unborn child(this is in her head here, not mine.). With Daunyelle I sat around and ate tons, and when I needed to get somewhere Zarafae or Averlathmai were called to make a gate. With Asterid at the -very- begining of her pregnancy she still did use pass plant. However, shortly in she began not to. (Which infact caused some entirely dramtic roleplay which she was even demanded to do so, and still forbid.) As Cacie I opt not to astral walk with her husband, but will fly.

My point there is just.. all characters are different. Some take risks in some won't.

HOWEVER. I'm sorry here, I firmly believe using trasportation spells which involve using another plane or shadows are whatnot are indeed inappropriate. This is only my opinion based on the research I did way back when Mele was preparing to apply, and conversations with the owners of the past during Mele's pregnancy.

By no means am I coming here to lay down law or attempt to enforce or any of the above. I'm just stating what I know from experience, research and old word from upstairs.

Things change, however.


Edit :

I just also want to point out, pregnant women today are completely irrelivent to pregnant women in FK. FK is in a different time and place. No modern medicine, women miscarrying way more often, women giving birth to unhealthy babies who die in weeks, months, or early years etc. You cannot compare apples to oranges.

[Gwain]

One time there was an interesting rp between Gwain and a pregnant pc. Instead of having her walk all the way back to her home, he used a teleport spell to get her back, but during so, Gwain placed his hand on her stomach and made sure a conduit was established to the child.

The result of this was an rp that was not neccesary by code or really needed because the baby would be fine. It was done to facilitate rp. If the result had been My character's hand fusing to the baby or stomach, well I would probably accept and rp it out. Thing is it seemed like something I would do icly to secure the child. I am not sure everyone else would do it, but my understanding of the pregnancy roleplay helped me make an educated decision.

I just wanted to pipe up at alot of these kinds of rp's are steered by decisions and choices, based on what we know. I think any attempt to rationalize or enforce an idea is fine. I also like the idea of freedom of options. Just as long as they are within reason.

[Horace]

I just also want to point out, pregnant women today are completely irrelivent to pregnant women in FK. FK is in a different time and place. No modern medicine, women miscarrying way more often, women giving birth to unhealthy babies who die in weeks, months, or early years etc. You cannot compare apples to oranges.

Very true, and a great point. And I know you didn't read it all, but that was where my point was going. We know this topic is outside the scope of the game, so we use critical thinking and work from there...but then if we look at the part of things outside real life concerns for an unborn, do we look at the things that could benefit them? A level 2 spell would reverse all harm. And I think that's why there is a such a dispute, because there is access to things in the FK world that people don't have access to in the real world...so how do you respond to these new options.

Is healing an unborn with divine magic offensive? Is it something a cleric would even do? Is it mechanically possible? Can resurrect work on a being that hasn't been born? Does it resurrect the placenta as well? The critical thinking just keeps throwing up more and more questions. That's why I think it's awesome Ol through this topic up...no one could reasonably know.

That's really the whole thing here. And I think there are generally two schools of thought.

1) dnd rules - no expressed change, so change should only be done because of a problem in gameplay

2) rp importance - roleplaying a pregnancy in fk has, and will continue to be, an incredibly special roleplay application...those who are being accepted to take on these roles need to be extremely protective so that macabre and distasteful scenes are not played out

Both have their merits. I'll shut up now and let you pregnant pc players and future pregnant pc players decide on what is the best course. Because obviously there couldn't be something in between my 2 options

[Nedylene]

I debated about posting this as it is not an offical WotC resource. The man who wrote this suppliment based it on AD&D standards, races and rolls. Of course .. it is considered the book of Carnal Deeds. In it however there are some statistics I fully agree on. Here is the link to the FULL suppliment

http://www.lysator.liu.se/~johol/netboo ... carnal.txt

Now the things I agree on... Conception rate:
Base
Race Chance
Dwarf 22%
Elf 13%
Gnome 20%
Half-Elf 54%
Halfling 50%
Human 77%

Different races have different reproductory functions. I whleheartedly agree on this. Elves carry on relationships that last centuries but only ever have 3-5 children when all is said and done. It is because they are harder to concieve. Same as dwarves and the other races. Hands down humans will always be the easiest race to concieve on and the easiest to carry a pregnancy to term.

Second point I agree on... Pregnancy Term:
Total Length Duration of
Race of Pregnancy Each Stage
Elf 24 months 2 months 20 days
Gnome 16 months 1 months 24 days
Dwarf 15 months 1 months 20 days
Halfling 7 months 0 months 24 days
Human 9 months 1 month 0 days
Half-Elf 12 months 1 months 10 days

A humanoid that matures at a slower rate OUTSIDE the womb is going to mature at a slower rate INSIDE the womb.

The other thing I agree on is the chance it will be a multiple child:

TABLE 1b: Chance of more than one child

Race Twin Trip Quad Quint Sex
Human 10 100 1,000 10,000 100,000
Halfling 100 1,000 10,000 100,000 1,000,000
Half-Elf 500 5,000 5,000 50,000 500,000
Elf 1,000 10,000 100,000 1,000,000 n/a
Gnome 10,000 100,000 1,000,000 n/a n/a
Dwarf 100,000 1,000,000 n/a n/a n/a

Twins in humans have always been the most common. Twins in other races... Not so much. A different race has a different chance of having twins. It is just to go to say that each race is different. We are comparing the pregnancy of an elf and a half-elf to a real live human. They are completely different. I tend to believe this game is three dimensional. It is more then just code and it is your CHARACTER too. When you choose a different race you can no longer compare them to humans because... you aren't human.

That book has alot of good information and alot of clear information that was compiled by a very intelligent and knowledgable DM. It's worth a read if you ever choose to rp this type of roleplay.