Spellcasters & the others

[Roderick]

Ah! Thanks for the thread link Harroghty. I think you and are are really on the same page here, but I just can't put it quite as eloquently as you can. Your ideas of armor fit right into my ideas of more protection for fighters and vice versa. That makes them better at front lines, and it could set them apart from other classes enough to make fighters 'the choice' for that duty.

In fact, on reading the thread and your post, I see some flaws in my original argument. Enchanting weapons and stuff would only impact those that had them..which would be rare. So that doesn't really help. I think if change was going to be made, something broad would have to be done. And the one thing that comes to mind would be either amping up the existing feats and/or adding some new ones (every fighter could have access to those), or adjusting the basic defense values of heavy armor (again..all fighters reap the benefits if they wear heavy armor of course).

You are really swaying me towards your viewpoint on the matter so far. I will let you decide if that is a good or bad thing.

[Vibius]

Sure extra-damage and improved AC is nice but in my opinion making fighters able to take more damage and deal more damage still doesn't make them vital in a party when you could take spellcasters with you that would be able to do what they do more efficiently.

Any ideas on how to make them more valuable in a party?

[Harroghty]

I would argue that the AC issue would really increase the value of fighters by allowing them to fulfill their traditional role. Fighter's bring a number of skills to the fight that are sometimes mirrored by other classes. Using spell slots on "Knock" is unnecessary when you have a fighter with the "Doorbash" skill. Multiple spells of protection become less important with several fighters acting out their professional title.
In short, the reason why I believe that these adjustments are particularly pertinent to the issue is this: what is the fighter's job? He is supposed to be the consummate master of melee combat. The better equipped he is at that role then the more useful he is to your party. Certainly there are rangers and paladins who are capable warriors but I believe that there should be situations when you go to a fighter because he is, flat-out, the best choice for a melee battle. You take a thief to handle traps, or a cleric to ensure you come out alive, but there should be times and places you take a fighter to handle the battle and "fixing" the fighter accomplishes this I think.
If a ranger or paladin is just as good then what are you sacrificing for the ability to track, to skin, to lay on hands, and so on? (Naturally, I understand there are case by case examples of a paladin or ranger who is -and should be- more competent but I am speaking generally.)

[Nysan]

Using spell slots on "Knock" is unnecessary when you have a fighter with the "Doorbash" skill.

True, but knock sure does hurt less.

[Harroghty]

From the 3.5e Player's Handbook:

Other Classes: The fighter excels in a straight fight, but he relies on others for magical support, healing, and scouting. On a team, it is his job to man the front lines, protect the other party members, and bring the tough opponents down. Fighters might not understand the arcane ways of wizards or share the faith of clerics, but they recognize the value of teamwork.
Role: In most adventuring parties, the fighter serves as a melee combatant, charging into the fray while his comrades support him with spells, ranged attacks, and other effects. Fighters who favor
ranged combat can prove very deadly, though without other melee support, they can find themselves in front-line combat more often than they might prefer.

Yes, "Knock" may hurt less but when you want dramatic effect it really leaves something to be desired. It is so anti-climactic.

Fighters, as I said earlier, are meant to compliment the other members of the team. They are the front-line grunts (again the value of earlier suggestions is confirmed above) who cooperate with some of the shared skills (dealing damage, opening doors, etc.) and bring their own value: taking and dealing melee damage so that the rest of the party is free to fulfill their own roles.

[Nedylene]

I am not a fighter... I do not even have a fighter. I do have a ranger or two but that's it..

While I have not muddled through all of the threads about how to improve fighters, it seems like most of what it comes down to is that fighters need to be more able to take hits. There are some feats in game which boost con and HP Etc... Has anyone considered or fully thought out some new skill ideas? Perhaps things like.. Guard that when in the front line of a party and a "creature" tries to attack something in middle rank or rear rank you step in and become the target of the attack ... Or Improved Guard that boosts their AC when they are in a party and front line with a check on each sucessful hit, better you are in the skill more of a boost you get.. Or Armor finess that when wearing full plate your natural AC is given a boost?

[Roderick]

I like those ideas Nedylene, very good thoughts indeed. Harroghty is right on with the thoughts that fighters needs to be the ones that bring the big two items to the group: taking and dishing out melee damage. Notice the focus on melee damage, not magical because mages are always going to be the top dogs of dealing overall damage. The question really needs to get down to how we do it. We have two ideas that we have been kicking around so far:

Overall boost - this applies to the AC increase that has been discussed. That can be approached various ways, plate AC boost, fighter class specific AC increase when wearing heavy armor (because they eat, live, and sometime bathe in it), etc.

Additional Feats or Skills - like the stuff Nedylene was talking about. This could be a great way to approach it for a couple of reasons. Vibius posted about making them more valuable to a party, well the ideas for the Guard and Improved Guard pointed out gives them that.

Harroghty brought up a good point about why do fighters give up the skills of the ranger/paladin when you can't really tell the difference between the three classes? Well, here is how you answer that. Fighter class specific feats like the ones Nedylene suggested and fighter specific AC bonuses in heavy armor. You could even make it legit with the reasoning that Fighters dedicate themselves to combat, whereas Paladins have their focus split on fighting and faith as well as wondering where they will find their next princess to rescue, and Rangers have their focus split on fighting and nature as well as tree hugging and rescuing trapped felines from the evil grasp of tall tree limbs (drat..almost went a whole post without poking fun at my ranger buddies..oh well).

Or, we could do the only civil thing when two great choices are presented to us. Implement both, of course. Good ideas everyone!