[LANGUAGE] Magical

[Vibius]

I was wondering if this language could be added to the list of the languages that can be learnt by thieves, they argueably have some insight into the magical through the skill *use magic device*, and also there is the fact that learning a language only grants the capacity of speaking and understanding it, casting spells is entirely different. Also they are able to learn the skill spellcraft much before than their warriors friends

[Raona]

Honestly, since there is the spellcraft skill, I'm not sure there is a lot of point in having magical coded as a language?

Are creatures (like magical swords and helmed horrors) supposed to be able to converse in it?

[Nedylene]

Magical is a language in FR standards that has a few different forms. It is almost like latin to wizards. Do I think other classes should be able to learn it? No, not really. It is something you study and while spellcraft helps you see what spells are being cast, that magical language is the fundamentals of creating new spells and magic itself.

[Jaenoic]

I don't see any reason why any language should be denied to a class. Just because I'm a paralegal doesn't mean I can't learn Swedish. So why shouldn't a fighter be able to study magical? It's just his or her choice whether or not to engage in that study.

[Horace]

It can be argued that you at least need the ability to cast arcane magic to be able to understand magical language.

Almost like those secret messages on the back of the Trix boxes as a kid. You always needed the secret decoder ring or you didn't have a shot at understanding what the rabbit was trying to say...it's like that, in my eyes.

[Nysan]

I don't see any reason why any language should be denied to a class. Just because I'm a paralegal doesn't mean I can't learn Swedish. So why shouldn't a fighter be able to study magical? It's just his or her choice whether or not to engage in that study.

I think there is good reason, in some instances. I consider some languages harder to master than others, especially for certain classes. Fighters, for instance, are great at street smarts and tactics but are not all book-smart scholars so some languages would be difficult for the average fighter to learn. (generally speaking of course, not saying all fighters are illiterate)

That said, most languages are fine to be known far and wide because they are common languages and fairly easy to grasp by anyone. Dwarven, elven, and the like are such languages... I'll even toss in darkspeak due to trade practices. But when you start getting into the less common languages like magical, animal, thieves cant, ect, yes there is a good reasoning why everyone and their dog should not know it and it is those languages are not heard or used in day to day life of most of the realms. I have similar thoughts concerning planar languages like infernal and abyssal, but I'm less ruffled by them due to the difficulty in finding trainers and the lvl 10 requirements.

[Jaenoic]

Almost like those secret messages on the back of the Trix boxes as a kid. You always needed the secret decoder ring or you didn't have a shot at understanding what the rabbit was trying to say

Those types of messages aren't languages, they're codes. They are actually English just with letters switched around. You may need the secret key, but no real language requires such a key to learn. If Magical is like this case, then I don't believe it should be considered a language by code, but rather left to the spellcraft ability as suggested.

I consider some languages harder to master than others, especially for certain classes. Fighters, for instance, are great at street smarts and tactics but are not all book-smart scholars so some languages would be difficult for the average fighter to learn. (generally speaking of course, not saying all fighters are illiterate)

There's nothing that says a fighter has to be street smart and not book smart. It may be a common archetype of a fighter, but what about fighters of Mystra? They would have ample use of the Magical language. Also the mage slayer kit from 2nd ed(Might be called wizard slayer?) would have use of the language; know thy opponent sort of deal.

When it comes to language, one's class should have no bearing on how difficult language X is. The only things that determine how difficult a language is to pick up are a) your own learning capacity toward language acquisition and b) your native language(For example Cantonese Chinese is difficult for English speakers because tones are not a differentiating factor in English, but are in Cantonese. English is difficult for a Japanese speaker to pronounce because Japanese does not allow consonant clusters, but English has many large consonant clusters) Most fighters might not have a use for the Magical language, but some may. I say leave it up to the player's discretion to appropriate RP whether their fighter should learn the language or not. After all, you only can learn a finite number of languages, so any fighter who chooses to learn magical probably really wants it, and fits it into his/her RP.

[Nysan]

No, no, I said there are exceptions. The learning potential between a Mystra fighter and a merc from the tavern are quite different, not arguing that. I am however, concerned that naturally difficult languages; like magical, animal, theives cant, (lesser extent infernal/abyssal) would be heard around the market place as regularly as common or elven. Its the "I'll train/use it cause I can" syndrome. Same effect I see now and then via priest spell training. Call me paranoid, I'm used to it.

[Horace]

If Magical is like this case, then I don't believe it should be considered a language by code, but rather left to the spellcraft ability as suggested.

Isn't that sort of what restricting classes does though? Just ensures only spellcasters can understand it? It is a little different than the spellcraft skill. I mean it's definitely a language, it's something that is spoken by creatures to communicate. I like to believe the language: magical is literally magic...which is why what I'm saying isn't making much sense to a linguist

I could be wrong though, if anyone really went into it, it would have been tsr - I haven't cracked any of there stuff in years.

[Vibius]

Magical language is not magical at all, is rather the language used in magical writtings and spoken when chanting spells in the same way celestial tongue is not good but rather the language spoken mainly by creatures from the good-aligned planes who are good.

An analogy would be knowing the terminology used in chemical formula and actually know chemical fomula, knowing the terminology would make you able to say things as silver dioxid but that doesn't mean that the things you say are "right", knowing the right combination of words, runes, rules or symbols saying things that make sense would be spellcraft, and the practical application of arcane knowledge would be the domain of wizards, because they have devoted themselves to learn to put to use arcane knowledge, because casting a spell is much more than learning the right words.

This is why I think that magical should be an "open" language.

[Selveem]

I'd like to weigh in, if I may:

I personally LOVE having so many languages, skills, feats, special abilities, spells, etc..

Practically, I don't see any reason for Magical being an 'actual' language.

To argue that it has meaning in the spells you cast, well, great! But, does that mean you can speak in coherent sentences using the arcane words? I highly doubt it.

Ajvei Ma Bahem -whatever. Sure! It means fireball, right? So, that's spellcraft skill. You don't form coherent sentences saying: 'Cone of Cold Vampiric Touch Curse Detect Magic' - do you?

I think it would be a bit ridiculous arguing its current use is valid in an FR sense. To me, I would agree that it's a bit more 'Animal'-ish. It's a skill specifically for a class that no one else can learn (Speaking of Druids. I suppose that is the language only they should know? I know in FR they get their own language that only they can learn).

One may argue that anyone can learn any language and that none should be exempt, but that may be seen a bit more as a bid towards cross-classing (which has already been spoken of as 'never going to happen' in the past). Druids want to have their own language, that's cool - it's in the handbook. Anything else, I'm not aware is class specific.

In conclusion, I don't feel 'Magical' language has a valid place in FK; it is my belief that the way it is often utilized stretches imagination past plausibility. I don't support other classes learning it even if it stays, however, as other classes already have unique languages only available to their class.

[Lerytha]

I've always thought of "Magical" as a wizard's tongue. Yes, the words of magic, but also probably, knowing those damned wizards and their traditions, something that high-and-mighty uppity-yuppity la-di-da wizards use to make themselves feel far more elite and special than the worthless peons below them.

i.e, it isn't enough for a traditional wizard to walk in and speak infernal. After all, anyone can theoretically learn infernal. But to a wizard, the magical tongue is probably the secret of their class, gleaned through their study of magic, their knowledge of spells, etc. I see it as a wizard-to-wizard tongue, to talk of higher, otherworldly things where the mud-grubbing lesser classes cannot overhear.

(All talk of uppitty wizards and muddy other classes completely tongue-in-cheek, said in an exaggerated way to show the sort of stereotype wizard I think magical fits in with very well. Obviously other wizards would be less uppity, but I still like the sort of "secret wizard language" idea).

~Ol

[Glim]

Bonus Languages

A wizard may substitute Draconic for one of the bonus languages available to the character because of her race.

Doesn't that translate as draconic being the language of magic? Or is that not a correct interpretation?

[Zorinar]

This is an interesting discussion but I think one of the first replies hit the nail on the head by suggesting that the Magical tongue is the wizard's version of Latin. All sciences or Arts need a common tongue if information is to be passed among users from different language backgrounds, hence the Magical tongue is akin to real life priests that all used Latin back in the day. Although Latin died out in the common world, most modern traditionally educated Catholic priests still learn and use Latin for mass and some of them still communicate in it with each other sometimes. I don't see why Magical should be restricted to only wizards as it is just a language, but I guess it would be rather moot for anyone to really learn it as there are no advantages to learning it. It would be better to learn a more commonly known language currently. In fact even a wizard does not have to learn the language to be a wizard. It would be more interesting if the language was put to more use in the code. For example, if one's success of failure rate at casting was somehow related to their ability to speak the tongue, or if it was required in order to write a scroll or read one, that would be interesting. These little things which further separate one class from another only add to role play in my opinion.

And then the thieves could even be happy to, because they could then have to learn the language in order to use magical devices or read scrolls or whatever they do.

[Selveem]

I understand, but even by that description, the 'language' of magic has power.

This would mean that if one were to try to use it like a regular language and just speak to another wizard like they would in common, there would be a chance of an adverse affect by the weave misinterpreting their intentions in the words they spoke, no?

If I had a wizard who practiced speaking the word 'oblivion' in Magical tongue, would that set about the end of the physical realm?

I'm not saying it should happen, I am only giving this example to show that its current use within FK mirrors nothing like I've ever seen/heard it used before. Even in D&D, this is not a listed language (unless it is being considered as Draconic as previously suggested). Even then, would that mean that Kobolds would be casting spells accidentally?

I just think it's silly to be using 'magic' language as a regular run-of-the-mill language. Thus far, I have yet to see anything to convince me as to why I might imagine otherwise.

[Lerytha]

Selveem, I think the chances of a wizard accidentally casting the spell to end all existence is rare. Sure, the incantation probably uses the word "oblivion" in magical tongue, yes. But it probably involves sentences like, "rise now higher, death and fire; dark raging sea, bound by power of three; sent by these words, hear these last churns; the end is now begun: oblivion, oblivion, come."

(will explain that point in further detail in a moment)

As I see it, in the magical tongue, you can say, "Alright Bob, how's your Sheila?" And the wizard Bob can answer, "Ach, she's alright, Jim, how's your Pauline?" Jim can then say, "Ah, she's in a nightmare reality where a spell of mine has brought about the end of the world, resulting in death, fire, oblivion, and did I mention death?" Bob can also say, "Ouch. But more importantly, do you have any ice cream?"

Supporters of the view that the magical tongue can cause whatever you say to occur would probably say that firstly, by speaking the words SHEILA and PAULINE, those people would be teleported to the conversers. And of course, as soon as NIGHTMARE and DEATH, FIRE, OBLIVION are mention, those things are brought about. As a bonus though, ICE CREAM is also conjured merely by speaking those words.

Unfortunately, magic doesn't work like that. On a practical point of view, you need components, and gestures. Do you think Mystra would allow a spell of magic which can cause oblivion of the world, without making it have at least a component cost of 1 gold piece? At least? Do you think she'd allow a spell to exist where a wizard can just point to the ground and shout "OBLIVION" and end the entire existence of the world? Surely if that had been possible, thousands more wizards would have accidentally killed themselves, created a hole in time and space, summoned demons, etc? I know those things happen, but they happen through MISCAST spells, or UNFORSEEN CIRCUMSTANCES, and not through speaking the magical tongue.

Now, about the magical tongue itself, and incantations. Although the mud code makes the incantation for "magic missile", quite simply "magic missile in the Magical tongue", IC it is far from it. You can't just point and shout in the Magical tongue, "Magic missile!" "Fireball!" "Invisibility!" "Globe of blades!". Magic doesn't work like that. It just doesn't. A), as I've mentioned you need components and B) magical incantations are not directly translatable. IC, incantations are rhymes of power, or formulas, just spoken in the magical tongue.

So... in my opinion, the magical tongue is a magical tongue. Perhaps it is learnable? That's a discussion I'm not sure what I think about. But I just want to say quite clearly, that just because it is the language of power, doesn't mean we need to take a view that it is the power of language that causes magic. It is many other things, meaning this idea of "ICE CREAM" and ice cream appearing is silly. If that is so, any wizard could have great power beyond anything the setting has them have. Heck, a wizard could even just shout, "HEAL!" at the top of his/her voice and use the Weave to heal, normally the province of the priest class. Or "RERSURRECTION!".

So no, magical tongue misunderstandings cannot occur in the way some people believe them to be able to occur.

(Capitals used to highlight words, not to portray aggression, which is distinctly lacking in the author of this post! )

~Ol

[Hviti]

Hehe. Having read The Name of the Wind recently I find that last post rather amusing. On topic, however, if magical were opened up to thieves, thieves' cant ought to be open up to wizards (and/or other classes). If thieves can learn a magical tongue, there's no reason wizards can't learn hand gestures. However, I don't think either case should be trainable because thieves don't generally go to Hog...wizard school or whereever they would learn of this nor do wizards hang out on rooftops with gangs...perhaps if a wizard or a thief wanted to RP having done the respective groundwork to learn these tongues they could apply for it, but I don't think they should just be able to learn them right off.

Personally I like having a few languages that are class restricted - it gives linguists a reason to actually study so you don't have to do the wonderful tell/tell/tell conversations to keep anything secret...it gives classes a nice difference in RP flavor.

[Zorinar]

I also don't think that the code should prevent anyone from LEARNING the thieves, but if a thief were caught TEACHING it to a non-thief, they should be put to death by the thieves guild, and the person that learned it should also be put to death. That would keep the thieves fearful to teach it and others fearful to learn it. Nice bit of roleplay could commence from that.