Faith List and IC/OOC

[Horace]

from the help file

-------------------------
Faith
=====
Syntax: faith <enquire|apply|questcomplete|list|demote|advance>

This is the main command to deal with faith levels. Faith Managers can use
'advance' and 'demote' in addition to 'bless' and 'damn' to manage their
faith. All members of a faith from acolyte up can use 'faith list' to see a
list of all members of their faith at their faith level and those below. All
members of a faith are encouraged to seek out inquirers and help them
understand the key tenets and general nature of the faith.

-----------------------

I personally very much enjoy this interpretation of whether or not faith list is IC or OOC, because it takes into consideration that many PC's aren't open about their faith and plenty of faiths only have a handful of PC followers - many of which aren't open about for a prospective character to ever know.

The help file implies, at the very least, those of the enquire/apply faith level are 100% known to those who are able to use faithlist and see them...without it, it'd be feasibly impossible for characters to join certain faiths without doing something IC'ly ridiculous, like mailing a faith manager (which can only make sense in a game world where such actions are absolutely forced).

If faithlist is OOC, it should be removed - or there should be some faithgreet system or something so as to work like the who list.

But I strongly suggest, at least at the enquire/apply levels, it be IC. The faith system makes even less sense if you force every single prospective follower to mail the only known PC member of the faith - the equivalent of sending an email to Vito Corleone to join the mafia...it just doesn't make sense.

[Nedylene]

Personally I feel that faith list is OOC. In many many faiths there are characters that are incognito and are not "known" by the entirety of the faith. They need to remain that way. Just because you are in a faith does not mean you are instantly known by everyone in the faith.

I do not think that faith list should be removed. It is a valuable tool for Faith Managers and Inner Circle in monitoring the faith, ensuring all hopefuls are tended to, knowing the names to ensure you are "available" when said hopefuls are online and giving you a structure to work with inside of the faith. It is also a valuable tool for staff members who ever come in and play said immortal to know who is in the faith to utilize for rps etc. This is what faith list is suppose to be... A tool. Not a end all to be all of knowing everyone insta greet. Personally I feel knowing someone is in the faith because of a faith list is a form of metagaming.

These are my personal beliefs as a faith manager and I know they are shared by many others. Once upon a time there was no faith list and the means of organizing was a well tended to notebook which I know some of us old school people still have. Keeping records of people, places etc. Now I have a command I can use, a way to organize followers into "ranks" a definition for each rank, duties for each rank etc.. etc.. etc

[Horace]

But that's different than faith enquire/apply - it's 100% necessary for that to be IC. It can't function any other way.

[Nedylene]

It depends on the faith and the responsability of the players. For example... someone enquires or applies for Shar or Mask with an NPC priest. Who would that priest notify within the faith? Likely only the highest ranking members who are trusted with that information.

Conversly someone applied to Lathander or Oghma, who would they tell? Likely any reliable follower who walks into the temple and asks or seems interested in ushering people in.

[Nysan]

Once upon a time there was no faith list and the means of organizing was a well tended to notebook which I know some of us old school people still have. Keeping records of people, places etc.

Hehehe, good times.

Faith list... To me, its a placement issue to determine if it is OOC/IC.

People placed at the top of the list (FM/inner circle), it is all IC. Folks at that level would know, at least by name, everyone on the list.

Bottom of the list (inquirers/hopefuls), its OOC. You know who you have met IC only and the list is only there to allow help with OOC contact (forum private messages and the like), when necessary.

How much is IC or OOC should depend on how much you have done IC regarding your faith. Inner circle/FMs have done alot faith-related where hopefuls have done little, their knowledge of the list should reflect that.

End of the day, its an IC/OOC tool not a magic "I know everyone and everything!" phonebook, like the who list.

[Horace]

It depends on the faith and the responsability of the players. For example... someone enquires or applies for Shar or Mask with an NPC priest. Who would that priest notify within the faith? Likely only the highest ranking members who are trusted with that information.

The priest would notify anyone who could aid the enquirer/applying PC (as the help file suggests) - in other words: every single active PC within that faith. We don't have nearly enough high priests to assume only the FM's get messages, and then, only the FM's out of certain faiths based on personal perspectives and no canon relevance with no game precedence for new players and contradicting help files. I think it'd be a huge boon to the game if we stick with exactly what the help file says, and then the "hidden" part can be a full responsibility of the organization to keep the list quiet as opposed to giant orders of independent Mara Jade like Emperor's Hands who are so secret only Darth Sidius could ever know their affiliations.

Any evil faith likely has those who are wishing to stay hidden from others - namely any wishing to cause them harm financially or bodily, but with those parameters in mind it'd make even more sense for those secret faiths to know the few heavy swingers in their order (the pc's) more so than those of a goodly faith. Because there's a much greater benefit for the hidden faiths to know each other than the open.

I just think it's confusing, and I'm a 3-4 year player. One way or the other there needs to be a hard rule.

I'm simply proposing the hard rule be - you know the people of your faith below your rank automatically if you choose to (not faces, just names). We can keep the OOC nature while still seeing the list, but there isn't good reason for a higher ranking PC to not know a lower rankings' name if they wish to know it.../especially/ in the case of a PC just trying to get in contact to know more.

[Mele]

If you type faith list, then use it IC i's kind of an ooc thing, IMO. It's an OOC command. I mean think of people on faith lists who are 'spies' with hidden symbols. Or people who are on a faith list but have a symbol of a similar uncoded faith etc.

If you walk up to someone and said "Oh hey I heard you wanted to learn more" they say no, are you practically going to say ICly "Well the church says you do!" as an initiate of the faith? There's another helpfile saying initiates are "junior members" of faith.

The helpfiles are wonky and something real needs to be established. I personally really don't think its appropriate for the faith list to be someones den of ooc to IC info. I think if anyone should get to use it IC, it should be the person/people running the faith.

[Horace]

I'm not suggesting you know them intimately, but only that you've heard of them. Much like how our OOC who list has an IC aspect of titles. You can know of a person by hearsay, without ever having met them. The difference with enquirers is that using that hearsay you now have an IC reason to seek them out...as opposed to waiting until an FM logs on and has enough to time to go through with it all.

I guess I just don't see the benefit of having a PC in a faith, but in such a fashion that no one except the highest of priests have ever heard of you or ever associated you with the faith. It seems unreasonable, and without any real purpose.

[Nysan]

I guess I just don't see the benefit of having a PC in a faith, but in such a fashion that no one except the highest of priests have ever heard of you or ever associated you with the faith. It seems unreasonable, and without any real purpose.

Some roleplay setups are not for everyone. I could think of a number of ways such a faith-relationship would be welcomed. But, thats fine. Do not need to understand a person's motives to enjoy interacting with them.

[Horace]

That's my point though. It can still be "super secret" and the only ones who know are the (at most) 10 active PC's...in all of Faerun.

Or even better code change suggestion - a toggle of some kind. config +/- faith

[Nysan]

That's my point though. It can still be "super secret" and the only ones who know are the (at most) 10 active PC's...in all of Faerun.

Or even better code change suggestion - a toggle of some kind. config +/- faith

Personally considered looking at a person to be a great indicator if they are open about their faith or not. Symbol shown, not problem talking to them about faith. Symbol concealed, send a tell or do not bring it up. Thats just my theory.

[Horace]

That wouldn't help for the consideration of enquirers or applicants

[Layna]

There was a discussion about this before (here) and the general consensus seemed to be 'IC for faith managers and inner circle, not so much for lower ranking members'. If you consider the huge number of followers each faith would realistically have, it does seem odd that every member of a faith would know every other member. But then... player characters are not, for the most part, your average person. They are people who, by virtue of the deeds they do, are memorable.

If 'faith list' is supposed to be OOC for the lesser ranked members, then perhaps the ability to see it should be limited to those players that are in the higher ranks, those tasked with 'shepherding' the faithful? Of course, then we have the problem whereby new applicants to a faith with no one in those ranks, or no one in those ranks available when the applicant is on, are left floundering with no point of contact if the faith in question is not one of the more 'open' ones.

[Caelnai]

Interesting thread!

There was a discussion about this before (here) and the general consensus seemed to be 'IC for faith managers and inner circle, not so much for lower ranking members'. If you consider the huge number of followers each faith would realistically have....

Also interesting to me is that my take-away from that other thread was a bit different. Guess that's nothing new! I think the faith list is often very important for all members and that it varies so much amongst faiths that adjusting the code would invariably cause worse problems.

One (most, actually) of my PC's play a rarer faith. Recently, I was approached by a fellow faith member who admitted OOC that he saw my name as a fellow initiate so kept an eye out...and it lead to the best RP so far on that char. If he hadn't had the faith list, my char would still not have met another member of her faith. (It took three rl months via e-mail just to meet the FM!)

Though "realistically" faiths have tons of followers, for "game-reality" it often takes some effort to find another member and facilitate RP. (Back to my PC, she couldn't even access a faithed mob to "enquire" on until she was faithed!) It also seems reasonable to me that newer inductees would know "through the grapevine" their faith's bigwigs and also hear about fellow new inductees. I have RP-ed it that way when I was keeping my faith concealed, but someone else spilled it.

Alternately though, why not just ask OOCly if you're having a problem because of the faith list? I think most of us are reasonable that if we're told OOCly "Hey I'm on the down-low, please don't use the faith list to know/reveal my faith," we would honour that request. I certainly would, just like I do with people who use an alias even though greet (and mobs) reveal their truename.

[Nedylene]

From personal experience of a hard faith to manage. In the Shar faith I have one person at Questee, three at initiate, one at Acolyte and one at hopeful who have asked very specifically that their association with the faith be remaining private. My Inner Circle and Nedylene's right hand currently was thought to be of a completely different faith for a very very long length of his career. I do not find it IC for EVERYONE in the faith because it comes from different rp backgrounds. I do make it a point to tell everyone Prelate or above of hopefuls to get opinions but I would be upset if some of those I carefully sheltered from the rest of the faith were suddenly /known/ by the entire faith. I can name three other faiths who have followers, hopefuls and enquirers who have the same delicate nature as some Sharrans.

As it has been stated on another thread and now here, faith list is in character for Inner Circle and FM and noone else. The Inner Circle or FM must give names in an IC manner if they intend to send others off to talk to them. Sorry if this sounds like a rant but it is an OOC command to help others manage the faith better. It is not meant to be end all to know all. Even know there is a person an Chauntea's Faith list who is listed as a hopeful but the person has not said one iota of a word IC that they are seeking them. Akordia is oblivious this person is a hopeful because she knows her decently well and has never been approached or mentioned. Even in this case because she is THERE does not mean Akordia KNOWS. When I look at the faith list I see the names and mark them as people to make myself available to. But.. if you never once mention that you are following them /I/ am not going to initiate it.

[Horace]

As it has been stated on another thread and now here, faith list is in character for Inner Circle and FM and noone else.

If that is the case, it should be changed. It doesn't make any sense - that's why I started this thread because of this answer with the conflicting help file. Where the help file tries to facilitate roleplay and help things progress in a reasonable time frame, and the OOC answer seemingly came from no where and actively works against interaction.

I can't think of a single reason why a person of higher rank shouldn't be able to know a person of lower rank. If an FM wants a spy so badly they can just promote them to inner circle the moment they think they're ready...a player of a PC shouldn't be able to just announce "Hey! I'm super spy! No one knows me". It's not their choice...or at least, it shouldn't be.

Roleplaying something incredibly difficult to be, is awesome - but it shouldn't be handed over on a silver platter just because they say so, especially when it causes a backwards evolution for everyone else.

[Caelnai]

Not sure my reply set off a rant. If so, sorry!

I'd like to clarify that I have no problem with the faith list being OOC. I'm not sure I see a struggle to RP that either. I just hope that the "faith list" is NOT disabled to lower ranks because it is hard enough for newbies without that OOC push...most especially in small/rare faiths.

[Nedylene]

I disagree with you Horace. But I think this is a case of needing to agree to disagree. I have spies but I will not advance them and give them the ability to bless and damn and raise rank to questee until they have proven themselves. As it was stated on another thread Faith list is IC for FM and Inner Circle ONLY.

[Horace]

As it was stated on another thread Faith list is IC for FM and Inner Circle ONLY.

Yes I realize this. It's why I started the thread.

It makes no sense. 0 sense.

I have spies but I will not advance them and give them the ability to bless and damn and raise rank to questee until they have proven themselves.

Precisely my point. And it's done so at the cost of everyone else.

[Mele]

Players have the right to play as a spy and not teach about the faith...
They have every right to play a fully competant and devoted character that doesn't want to teach about the faith.

Not EVERY character is made to be a faith fanatic and teacher. You can worship without finding and teaching hopefuls.

Whatever happened to working a little for faithing? I mean don't get me wrong I don't agree with the months and/or years some people (Myself included) have waited in the current day and past. But I also don't agree that every single faithful should be watching the list and jumping at hopefuls. Trust your FM's. Have a little confidence in them. If you don't have one and are comfortable teaching, make yourself available. Find the hopeful with your OOC intent to RP with them for faith reasons, but don't run up talking about how the Church told you to find them, the Church told you they're interested. Let it come up in RP. If they bring it up, they want to go there. If they don't bring it up, they want to keep their faith quiet and between themselves and the FM/however means they're quested through.

There is nothing wrong with OOCly reading the list and OOCly putting your character in a position to help a hopeful, but that information ICly is a priviledge of rank in faith.
(ex: I see a hopeful of My mom on my faith list. I head over to my mom's temple and chill out for a bit hoping they'll come. I go to the Market flashing my symbol seeing if they want to RP)