Hallowed ground.

[Alvirin]

I would like to make an open question and hear what people thinks about the following subject;

Should those of opposed faiths enter temples of their counter-parts? Even when their affiliation is not known? Even when disguised/hidding/invisible/polymorphed/etc?

To which point the "godly" influence of a god is tangible in a temple? Enough (in some cases) to curse those who shouldn't be there?

[Isaldur]

Hallowed ground I can see working on undead, outsiders, and even those with outsider blood like aasimar or tieflings. I do not think it should work on every day mortals simply based off the fact that many temples over the ages in Forgotten Realms have been sacked, destroyed, etc by opposing forces. The Halls of Justice in the latest Waterdeep book even has a blackguard of cyric posing as a well known Paladin of Tyr without any trouble.

I'd think anything not considered native to the prime material plane should be fair game.

[Alvirin]

Perhaps the topic hallowed ground doesn't make justice to what I did want to meant, which would be something more the like: Selunites sneaking in Sharran Temples, Cyrists visiting Lathanderites temples, Maskarrans having tea in Waukeenar temples and so on.

To which point (is/isn't) alright (stay/visit) temples of opposed faiths?

[Selveem]

Honestly, I don't see any reason to have a Godly influence coded.

I _do_ know that if a staff member catches you, you're probably pretty.. well, let's say you won't enjoy playing your character.

[Alvirin]

I'm not saying that "godly influence" should be coded, but rather make this question; Would really in a strict IC sense make sense characters visiting temples of opposing faiths, where the character sure knows he is not welcome?

[Selveem]

I'm not saying that "godly influence" should be coded, but rather make this question; Would really in a strict IC sense make sense characters visiting temples of opposing faiths, where the character sure knows he is not welcome?

I believe it depends on how violent the opposition. For instance, Selveem has visited the Temple of Sune. To Tempus, there is no problem, but Sune doesn't like Tempus. There is no violence, nor did he attempt to provoke anyone, but he did go in.

If you're talking about an Tyrite visiting a Cyric Temple, probably a very, very bad idea. But, it is all determined by the motivations of the character.

Sometimes, you don't intentionally go into places. I assume you're not talking about that, but rather exploring far into it?

If the character heard rumor that someone was being held hostage, sure, why not? My Selunite has entered Zhentil Keep (not a well known character) to collect information before, but his symbol was concealed and he wasn't wearing any faith-related garments. This would be just the same as entering a Sharite temple, almost.

I'm not saying he'd set up camp there, or anything, but espionage occurs everywhere and to make all faith members fit into a cookie-cutter mold would be a bad idea in my opinion on an RPG where creativity is the currency.

[Nysan]

I'm not saying that "godly influence" should be coded, but rather make this question; Would really in a strict IC sense make sense characters visiting temples of opposing faiths, where the character sure knows he is not welcome?

Depends on the character really.

Symbol showing, well known, member of the church: Unless you are there to kill someone, you likely are in the wrong place.

Symbol hidden, never spoken in public about faith, no one but the FM knows they type member of the church: Alot of reasons to enter an opposing faith's church. Scamming a temple goer out of some religious tricket for example.

[Horace]

Keep in mind it's a polytheistic culture, and that they share the same pantheon - it's not nearly as volatile as opposing monotheistic gods or opposing gods from different pantheons.

For the main human pantheon, I can't think of any combination of gods that would totally rule out another person who has a different patron deity from entering. They're very much public places, for the most part. But if you're just going in to treat it irreverently, you're being an ass, and you'll probably be treated like one.

But being an ass is in character for plenty of people good and evil alike

[Oghma]

Certain temples are specifically coded to be hostile to opposites or faith enemies. If you get around code to enter without a good ic reason, you may be in trouble icly with the temple staff or faith members.

Its good to remember that though the code lets you do things, a temple that is staffed with your faith enemies but not coded to respond should still be avoided openly. If you go inside you may be taken to the logical rp'd conclusion, or you may not depending on the situation. My advice, do what your character would do depending on faith and alignment and accept the result of that.

and...

For the main human pantheon, I can't think of any combination of gods that would totally rule out another person who has a different patron deity from entering. They're very much public places, for the most part. But if you're just going in to treat it irreverently, you're being an ass, and you'll probably be treated like one.

Just as an example:

If a maskite used invis or hiding to sneek into an Oghman temple, they might not run into trouble, If they strolled in and were discovered they may experience difficulties relating to the situation. Ie, the summoning of faithful, the outrage of temple mobiles or other things.

[Layna]

My Selunite has entered Zhentil Keep (not a well known character) to collect information before, but his symbol was concealed and he wasn't wearing any faith-related garments. This would be just the same as entering a Sharite temple, almost.

Aside:

Zhentil Keep is just a city. It may be the current seat of Cyric's power, but it's not holy ground and non-evils are not automatically kill on sight. In fact, the progs that previously booted out good aligned priests and paladins was removed. We welcome your coin in our fine city of trade ^_^ (No seriously, goodlies have visited before, openly, and it's led to some fun ArrPee. Of course, it rather depends on who you meet while you are there...)

Personally, Layna won't visit the temples of the faiths she consider enemies - some enmities are just too deep. She may, however, occasionally be spotted in temples that would probably throw a fit if they knew who she was because of general alignment stuff If you want to tempt fate, that's up to you, but don't be surprised if the god in question decides to lay the smack down on you.

Edit to add: And you probably shouldn't be going in waving your 'hey I'm here and you don't like me' banner. Big old spikey plate is best reserved for the appropriate time and place.

[Horace]

Oh yeah, treating the temple without proper respect would definitely draw some negative attention - the same as a Torm paladin walking into some Bane temple and proclaiming him a false god would probably result in a tussle out in the alley.

But if the Tormish, for whatever reason, went in following appropriate etiquette and just prayed quietly...tension may be a little high, high enough that it'd be uncomfortable. But I don't believe they'd be escorted out, likely questioned outside the temple.

My knee jerk reasoning, that isn't entirely based on something concrete in FR that I've read, is that all those who worship a god in a pantheon has a right to pray to another within that same pantheon.


edited to add: I love you Layna. Everyone should remember that about /the/ Keep

[Kregor]

Personally, I asked Waukeen oocly what would happen if a Maskarran were to enter her temple in Zazesspur. I believe her answer was something to the point of: If you conceal yourself, do not draw attention to yourself, and do not cause disruption in her place, you're most likely going to be let go your way and enjoy the temple, as it is a public place. If you come in wearing your vestments, or proclaiming some faith allegiance, or are there for the intent of causing disruption in her faith, she will intervene, and it won't be subtle.

So, for example, when a Maskarran goes to infiltrate the temple and get close to those within, to gather information, and what not, if there is to be divine intervention, she would exact it. She has chosen to exact it once someone got too close, by revealing it to everyone present.

This would not be an everyday occurance, as Isaldur mentioned, a recent novel has a blackguard masquerading as an influential paladin in a goodly temple. Just because the temple is dedicated to a particular deity, don't forget that a devotee of an enemy faith likewise has the favor and possible intervention of his own deity on his side, and such favor can serve to conceal the nature of the person from prying eyes.

[Ynaura]

Ok. I know I'm late in responding to this one...but I've had a bit of experience with this area and wanted to remention something that's already been talked about here and add my two cents. Just because code allows you to get away with something, doesn't mean that you'd even come close to getting away with it ICly. You can walk into a temple you are opposed to and threaten people and the faithful there, and ramble on about how your faith is so much better, and insult the god of the temple you are in... But ICly...that just wouldn't fly. You'd be escorted out, or depending on which temple you are in something worse. Also if you've ICly been banned from said temple, it is likely that all the NPC priests in the temple would know about such ICly, don't you think? So you wouldn't be able to go into that temple just because none of the players are about to catch you. If I were to walk Ynaura into a Cyrist temple, she may not just be beaten instantly. But if I walked her in there and started taunting the priest there and started preaching to him in the ways of Oghma... after a few minutes to let them get over their chuckling phase and wondering what that nutty bard was thinking, I'd expect for her to face some pretty harsh realities fairly quickly. It would be even worse if she dared to actually make threats to said priest. That priest could ICly run and gather the rest of the members in the temple, including the guards. A player priest could do the same thing realistically. I've seen a lot of this going on before, and again in the past few days. I'm not saying don't come in and do those things if you think it is in your character's rp to do so, but do not get upset or just ignore the consequences that comes with it because they are not coded into the game. I'll stop before I go into a rant here..but just repeat one more time..just because the code allows you to do it, does not mean that you should, or that you could ICly.

[Layna]

ICly - I agree wholeheartedly with Ynaura. You have to remember that as well as the NPCs you can see, there would be a whole shedload that you can't. And frankly, they're not going to put up with you being an ass in their holy place.

[Brodnur]

I find myself agreeing with the general concensus here. I know that, for example, Brodnur, as a servant of Moradin would not willingly go into a temple of the One Eye, and if she did, would likely be swarmed close enough to immediatly to count, and end up in the cook pot. I have also noticed, for some of the "Goodly Deities", there are paladins serving as door guards. Would they not be able to look into the soul of one seeking admittance, and judge accordingly whether or not the seeker is worthy of being allowed into a sacred place of worship? Seems to me that it could go on a faith by faith basis as to whether or not to allow faith enemies into the temple, or even simply those of too different an alignment than the faith requires. But I do not think it should be coded to wholesale bar those from entering, with no malice or intent to cause mischief, at least until they do stir up the hornets nest, (then, it's all good what happens, iccly speaking of course)