New teaching system: policies

[Lerytha]

Definitely, Alvirin. Although any decision to teach people others might not teach, is obviously IC, with the IC consequences.

One point I will make again, about Miriel's teaching.

She has told her apprentices that legally, the actions of an apprentice are counted as the master's responsibility. I can't remember which Forgotten Realms book I read that in, but it was there. I know it doesn't go the other way, but certainly in the distant past Miriel has paid bail for one of her students.

Obviously, teaching just a few spells/skills does not an apprentice make, so although the use of spells taught then used against people you care about can be used as a criticism against the teacher, because they aren't their apprentice, there is not as much intense scrutiny of the student. At least from my part. But then, that's because my character likes spreading the magic around to everyone (or mostly everyone).

[Nysan]

Won't touch on how-to teach, everyone has their own methods and 'standardizing' teaching RP would be a great disservice to a number of interesting RP setups... besides general rules like teaching requires a min of 10 mins of RP and the like. Now, what should be taught and who should be taught are interesting questions and I personally feel they are answered by the old "IC actions have IC reactions". There will be extremes that would be better dealt with OOC obviously, like teaching 20 people at a time every other day gate/astral walk, but for the most part teaching recourse is easily dealt with IC.

Since it is an IC issue, think as your character would. Would your fellow high-end wizard associates agree with teaching gate to so many people or would they seek to 'correct' your habbits? How will your friends react to learning you just taught a priest of misfortune the basics of potion making? Is it really your dwarf's habbit to show the secrets of dwarven armorsmith to that human? Can you trust that new student not to abuse the power scribe offers?

Teaching has alot of imm involvement, but at the end of the day it up to IC common sense for 'proper' usage. Do whatever is IC for your character, just be ready for IC reactions (good or bad).

[Aveline]

Ok, twice I've typed out two pretty long responses for this and apparently I'm just forum challenged at the moment. So I'm going to say that I agree with what the other two have posted and say that choosing people to teach and how much Gesine charges if she charges just really varies from person to person. And I am going to only make one point about how I choose people to teach because it may be something people really don't agree with.

Alright, I know this is more my ooc feelings than anything, but I think even being ooc it really has a place in how we choose who we teach and who we don't. I know I have, and I'm sure the others probably have too..put A LOT of work into getting our characters ready to teach. Not just talking about stats and feat points here..but a lot of IC work too. Preparing lessons...learning spells.. And I do not like to speak for other people, but I am pretty sure it is safe to say that those of us who rp teaching things, are in it for the rp above other things. Now..here is where I'll start making my point. It annoys me to know end to have someone come to ANY of my characters, not just Gesine, to learn skills, and only be there for the skills/spells they can learn and not for the RP. I don't know if the others have had this happen, but I'll give a few examples.

Someone comes asking for lessons from Gesine, she agrees and payment and everything is squared away and they start on the lesson. Now the first thing that can happen is that the person will just sit there until the actual teach command is used. They might sit there and just push the enter key every few minutes so that their character will nod through the lessons. There is no real interaction. Or they'll just sit there through the lesson, not interacting at all, and as soon as the teach command is used once they stand up and just walk off without a word. I have had these things happen. It is no fun for me and it is very disappointing.

I *really* enjoy the teaching rp in game. And I do not want to spend my time sitting there trying to teach someone who is only there for the skills/spells and that is not going to interact with me. If I suspect you are one of those people, I may not agree to teach you. Usually I'll ask to see if they want to learn something simpler first and we'll work on that before we go to the more complex things. This isn't about how people rp, it is about the complete lack of rp. Gesine has taught characters that I oocly just can't stand. If you give something back in Rp, and she has no IC reason not to teach you, then I have no problems with her teaching anyone. I understand that real life situations will come up, that is understandable. And I also understand that it is in the rp of some characters to just be quiet..but even in that last case there is usually some interaction, so Gesine isn't just sitting there talking to herself until she uses the command. I also understand that there isn't always something for the student to say or do, but a little interaction just so I can see you are actively involved in the RP too ,is nice.

Again I know this is mostly my ooc feelings dipping in to how Gesine chooses her students. But I think it has a place. If you want the skills/spells, I do not think it is too much to ask that you RP for it. People may or may not like that, but..it's how I feel. And if someone has a different solution to it then feel free to mention. This ended up being long anyway. Sorry!

[Selveem]

About choosing students; I think that a teacher is accountable to some extent of those who teach, if he would teach something to someone that even without being a faith enemy uses it to cause harm, disturb or something like that those close to him / friends / members of his church / allies of his faith / etc, it would be IC to blame on the teacher as it would be IC blame on him as well if his student would have taught something potentially dangerous to someone who will likely use it to cause harm/trouble, potentially dangerous/powerful skills/spells should be taught carefully and being sure to those who are taught.

I completely disagree with this. Just because you're teaching someone something does not mean they are taking a full apprenticeship. Do you go around blaming Tempurian Temples for teaching those nefarious rogues second attack which they then later used to kill a noble and steal their family heirlooms?

Can you blame a Gondar for teaching a Tempurian how to build 'the Machine that Won the War?'

You can't damn a teacher for another's actions.

If that were the general consensus of society even in reality Collages wouldn't exist.

In FK, trainers for hide, sneak, steal, and offensive spells would not be in the game. Additional attacks probably wouldn't be, either. Weaponsmithing probably would not be able to be learned.

Teaching SHOULD be IC. Just like players don't (generally) try to learn from mobs it is un-IC to learn spells, skills, or trades from, so too should the teacher when played by a player have that general IC-imposed awareness.

[Lerytha]

Although sometimes one person's IC justification may not sit well OOC with some people, but it is still an IC justification. The "priest of Misfortune" example above, is particularly close to home Miriel has always taught evil people as well as neutral and good people. The only limits she puts on them is that they can't be direct enemies of her faith, or that they can't have previously lifted a hand against her or that which she protects. ICly that is, I understand, open for IC consequences (ostracisation, or whatever), but sometimes people assume that just because they wouldn't do it IC, someone is bad OOC for doing it.

That's why this thread is helpful, so we all know what limits are, and stuff.

[Selveem]

I *really* enjoy the teaching rp in game. And I do not want to spend my time sitting there trying to teach someone who is only there for the skills/spells and that is not going to interact with me.

Another side note: I sincerely hope this is reported. This, to me, is blatant abuse of the time and effort our player-teachers have put into their characters, RP, and sacrifices they made for their build. It is severely disrespectful behavior of the player who was taught something they may not be able to even learn in-game.

[Lathander]

Agreed Selveem. If you are teaching someone you feel is abusing the system, you are under no obligation to continue the lessons.

[Alvirin]

Can you blame a Gondar for teaching a Tempurian how to build 'the Machine that Won the War?'

You can't damn a teacher for another's actions.

Yes, you can.

From the perspective of his church the Gondar is doing the right thing, and so he will never get problems from his church because that, people from other churches might dislike it and give their opinions on it because even if the Gondar is doing the right thing according the teachings of his church, people are still entitled to have an opinion and express it.

[Selveem]

If people truly thought that way the Church of Oghma would be burned down.

If people thought that way there would be no rogue trainers in the game.

Thinking so is just ridiculously silly to assume the majority should (or would) feel that way.

[Lerytha]

But as with most things, its entirely IC (and fun IC) to have comeback.

So, lets say the Oghmans teach someone to cast a spell of animating the dead, its really quite alright for people to start taking action against them. Its not bad RP, or even wrong.

I know this is an interesting debate, but its purely IC. It depends what your characters think. And, might I add, it makes an OOC discussion about it rather pointless, since one character will think one thing, one character will think another... so the players don't have to get involved!

~Ol