[Skill] Knowledge

[Erwyth]

I propose that knowledge skills be teachable, by players, to GM level.

I love the idea of having knowledge on your character. But, after a while, I feel as though the knowledge levels do not reflect my character. Feraael, who is a ranger; not the brightest either, has learned a great deal about FK and FR lore, through player interaction, as well as seen instructions for prayers and spells, such as time stop, gate, sunbeam, etc. Why should knowledge, skills, etc, only be gained with "extensive RP's defined as teaching" when a young player simply learns all there is to know just by Roleplaying.

Sure, I can roleplay knowing this and some would say this is enough. Others may agree with my proposal.

I personally do not see any negative downsides to this. If this is regulated and controlled, by players who have been playing a while, the system will still remain in place. You can learn from an NPC, or by performing; but with my proposal, you could also learn from a PC.

Points I would like to make: Hassling a character to tell a story could create conflict. Asking a character for knowledge, could also create some interesting RP. Imparting your knowledge upon others, even in small ways, could help character's to build their own knowledge and broaden their horizons.

Opinions!

[Harroghty]

I like the idea of player-taught knowledge skills but you approach a couple of issues:

(1) I would classify this as a "nice-to-have". In other words, I would say that it's low on the list of priorities.

(2) What're you teaching and who is regulating what is taught? We operate here on a loose kind of adherence to Ed Greenwood's world with our own quirks. So what becomes the source document, who writes it, and who regulates its instruction? This has the potential to become very labor intensive for something that is a low priority.

Beyond those issues, I believe this has the chance to be an interesting addition to the game with refinement. The rub is that, for the reasons I mentioned, I do not believe this to be an urgent issue.

[Julthain]

I believe this is a good idea via allowing more ways to gain them, but it seems per the helpfile on knowledge skills, that there are plans for them to be a prerequisite for prestige classes. So, keeping that in mind, I do not think that knowledge skills should be so easily gained, you should have to earn them through quests/adventuring and worldwide/admin ran RP events as you do now. Perhaps code in a few more opportunities to gain them, but as far as PC being able to teach them to anyone on a whim... I believe that would ruin any future plans for prestige classes. Knowledge should be something you have to work hard for to earn, just being able to sit in the Market Square day after day gleaning skill ranks off of passersby would take away the element from it.

[Horace]

Not to be a dick, but why does anyone even care? It doesn't do anything. No one is going to nick you for being inaccurate to your character if you're a mage and you have inept arcana knowledge.

Until the skill is anything besides just something to look at on your skill list - who cares? I ignore it as much as I ignore the height weight on my score card.

But...if it gets people talking about in world stuff, and teaching, and all that. It certainly is a boon to the game, if people are willing to go out of their way to initiate this RP just to get a meaningless skill increased. In my opinion though, a player should be motivated to do these things without the skill reward.

[Julthain]

The knowledge skills are useful in the game to a certain degree. I do not want to reveal any IC stuff OOC so I will just say that once you reach a certain level of skill with the knowledge skills it seems like it opens up quest opportunities to you, I am not sure on this, but eh... the way I see it, the knowledge skills wouldn't be there if there wasn't some reason for them to be.

[Nysan]

There was a reason for the knowledge skills, prestige classes. However the idea behind the skills was never fleshed out completely. So, the skills were coded and in-game but were left without the other half of the puzzle. This was several years ago, if memory serves.

Fast-forward to today: It is quite possible that since the old reason for these skills was never realized that they were attached to newer/recently coded areas and quests. If they are not being pulled out, might as well give them a purpose after all.

[Erwyth]

Post One to Julthain: The Market Square is huge and I can actually be talking to someone else, greet them and you can pretend to overhear, but I do not have to greet you. So, sitting there and demanding skill gains is unappropriate. I gained my information from the greet helpfile.

Horace: Many people already actively seek knowledge in more shape than one. What of those people who roleplay sitting in libraries? I've done it on a character of mine as well as seen it RP'd by another. Yes, this is rewarding for a player in regards to RP purposes.... But, a little something to show than "Yea I sit in a library for 5 straight months"

Nysan: I've also been told the [Knowledge] skills provide bonuses to other skills. Synergies they are called. For certain people, mages, clerics, etc... This could be a huge bonus or benefit...

Horace: I'm tired of hearing, "Its not an immediate concern", it was simply a suggesstion. See above for why the skill is useful in my eyes. Or as was unknown to me, quests, are dependant upon it.

[Horace]

Dude, if what you really need for an in game reward is to have that little knowledge skill at adept as opposed to novice - that's cool, whatever floats your boat.

But instead of roleplaying sitting in a library by yourself, you can just go to http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page and spread the knowledge you get from it. The more you know as a player about the setting, the more opportunities you have for your player character to be knowledgeable. The skill does bupkis.

Now you have to temper this with some reason. If you're playing a nonelf, you won't know the most sacred knowledge of elves. And if you're playing a wizard, your PC most likely never put a whole lot of effort into understanding the subtle differences between the former Garagos when he was alive and when he was Targus in the Netheril pantheon - a priest of Tempus though, very likely he'd know.

Do you get what I'm saying? I just don't see the point - but if that's what it takes to get you to study the setting, then god speed, I'm all for it.

[Erwyth]

You are missing my point entirely, so I'll state it as simply as I can.

It is a suggestion. It would be neat. It could add RP. I don't care if its implemented now or mulled over for the future, or how high it is on the list of priorities.

Horace: In response to your post, I try not to read articles on FR.... Because as it has been stated in numerous other threads, wiki is not the complete knowledge base of FK. There are events, which have happened, in FK which have not happened in the real Forgotten Realms timeline. Harroghty stated this earlier when he questioned my idea of "History in FK".

Using OOC knowledge IC, regardless if "apt" to do so, is not real roleplaying, in my opinion. If my character doesen't learn it, he doesen't know it, regardless if I know it OOC.

So now I ask, if I read all of Wiki... Then look at all my source books, then use all the knowledge from all the FR's books I know, does that mean my character has the knowledge to rival the Gods?

Not following the height / weight on your score card and pretending your 7 feet tall is also wrong IMO, unless authorized by an IMM.

Harroghty: the players themselves would be able to give out this information. Large events which happened, which almost all characters know about; such as rescuing a deity, could be considered Knowledge History. The Deathlord teaching about his God to a follower of Mystra, would be considered Knowledge Religion. A young ranger learning from another ranger about the name of a forest, Knowledge Geography. The list goes on and on.

My character, Feraael, has knowledge arcana inept. He was given a ring of stone skin and has no idea how to activate it. Why doesen't he? Knowledge arcana inept. Playing my character.... Not using the obvious out of character information.

[Horace]

You're always encouraged to research the game out of character. If you don't want to, that's cool, it isn't a requirement. But you're missing out on a /ton/ the setting has to offer.

You're the only player in the game who uses those skills as an authority on what his character knows...and it's not because they're all cheating. It's because the game is better when you don't.

[Nearraba]

I re-read on what your original post was, however I’m still sort of confused on what your suggestion actually does. It sounds interesting… Though other than having it in your skills & qlog, I’m still unsure of why it’s considerable. I’m not trying to be repetitive just trying to understand. =)

Other than just showing me what my skill level is on the knowledge categories and being in my qlog, what does your idea propose that it becomes? How will it be good for roleplay?

You said…

Horace: Many people already actively seek knowledge in more shape than one. What of those people who roleplay sitting in libraries? I've done it on a character of mine as well as seen it RP'd by another. Yes, this is rewarding for a player in regards to RP purposes.... But, a little something to show than "Yea I sit in a library for 5 straight months"

The part where you said…

“Yes, this is rewarding for a player in regards to RP purposes.... But, a little something to show than "Yea I sit in a library for 5 straight months"

How will you be able to show that to others? Couldn’t someone just claim they are a Master at the knowledge-religion and truly only be an amateur? You could still roleplay learning from one another, of course! =) I’m just not understanding the benefits …

&& Not knowing about how to activate a ring, isn’t bad at all. That is where Wizards and the Mystrans can come in for interaction and role-play opportunity. =) Just because Bob the wizard is a grand-master at the knowledge arcane that does not mean he knows about every magical item, even after receiving it as a gift.

[Erwyth]

Well.... We had an extensive discussion on the chat about this today. The way it was explained it to me: [Knowledge] skills are worthless. But, others said it had benefits. I'm still unsure if it does or not.
As Horace stated earlier, "You should just use wiki and learn about the stuff...."

Maybe I'm a little too literal about this skill, or OOC and IC knowledge in general, in the game. Perhaps I'm too use to PnP versions where you are suppose to actually play whats on your character sheet and if you don't.... You pay the consequences, which leads to better Roleplay; or enlightenment.

I assumed all these "older characters" had these skills at high levels. My thinking, for example: How can someone who knows nothing of say... The Great Archer, tell another character about his own faith.... Without GM Knowledge Religion?

Since it seems its not the case Nearabba, trading tales, history or simply giving the knowledge is good enough for those who seek it or enjoy listening to stories of other characters.

Edited for pissiness

[Oghma]

Might want to tone it down a bit and relax, not all subjects need to get so heated.

[Julthain]

Despite the popular belief that knowledge skills are worthless, I have experienced an occurrence of them working firsthand... I think :

Julthain went by an NPC several times during his travels and it never triggered any response. Then when one of his knowledge skills improved, he happened upon the same NPC and it triggered a sort of mini-quest. He was the same level, and nothing else had changed except the higher rank in knowledge.

I am not completely sure it was the ranks in knowledge that did it, it could have been some other hidden game mechanic that caused the response, but it seems likely that it was the skill improvement.