A spellcaster's world.

[Alvirin]

Hello

This is a question aimed principaly towards the imm staff, but that not excludes others from giving their opinions anyway.

My question is if there is planned to make any revision to the spellcasters classes, my concern is that in FK spellcasters are very powerful, and so are lorewise in FR, but particularlly in FK they have the lack of most this disavantages while having advantages that epic wizards in Faerun would dream about, and certaintly kudos for those who play a no-spellcaster class for the sake of RP, because knowingly or not, they are playing a fairly inferior class when compared to spellcasters, and since you can play a brawny cleric or a roguish wizard, what is the point of playing obviously inferior classes while you can keep the RP and play a "superior class"?

Namely I think that one of the most unfair advantages that have spellcasters now, is being able to cast spells and fight at the same time, for those who don't realize it is granting them a second additional turn or that all their spells are considered quickened but without any restrictions or needing to use higher spell-slots.

Also they are the master scouts, since they are the only classes that can actually detect hidden people, role that always took rangers or rogues, druids always had spells like faerie fire, but true sight being able to detect hidden people is an error in my opinion, it takes much from those classes and on the top of that removes another of the few weaknesses they have.

Finally spellcasters should cause attacks of opportunity every time they are fighting in melee and casting spells, which is one of the main reasons spellcasters they need dedicated fighters, so they can concentrate in their spells/prayers.

I don't advocate for reducing the spells that can cast a spellcaster a day since downtime would be a hassle, and this is not an attack to any spellcasters in particular and actually is very far from my objective, which is that all the classes have their chance to shine, but as it is, primary spellcasters have several advantages that can make (and make) other classes redundant.

Thanks for your time and understanding.

[Elke]

Well I haven't really played another class but honestly, apart from the both-attacks thing it has played out to me rather a lot like playing a wizard in D&D - insanely difficult to stay alive at low levels, much more powerful at higher levels. I will say that the difficulty in getting hold of components and of teachers is a massive balancing factor - certainly at low levels, even the basic components are completely out of reach.

[Enig]

Hello! I'm not an imm, but I have played a wizard, so I'm going to barge in rudely with my opinions here.

Elke has already brought up the cost of components, but I think the biggest limiting factor is simply the *availbility* of components, which I think is in itself a disadvantage that isn't probably seen in FR, yes? How often do you see wizards who can't cast spells like *fireball* because they lack for sulphur?

The crux of your argument seems to be about wizards hitting and casting at the same time, though? My understanding is that this is counterbalanced by an extremely severe disadvantage that wizards get; namely that the battlefield has absolutely no dimensions. In a typical FR game it'd be possible for a wizard to fling a fireball from the safety of behind a barricade fifty feet away from their opponent, but in FK that's completely impossible. In fact, whether you're flying or your opponent is, or regardless of other circumstances, any time two PCs are fighting the code presumes that they traipse on over to one another and stand within a foot or two to trade blows like obedient little adventurers.

Let me say, then, that although it may seem fun to blast away at bad guys, it's kind of a razor's edge! Unfortunately, from my experience, it would seem that formation does very little. Being stuck behind half a dozen brawny fighters won't keep a wizard from being pounded into a fine red paste, particularly if you're talking about mobs who won't play fair by reading smotes, so a wizard's life is almost always hanging by a thread or two.

That being said, I don't have any particular objections to wizards not being able to hit while they're casting a spell. A wizard's melee attack isn't typically much stronger than a ceiling fan in a tornado, so it doesn't seem like such a big deal and I agree that it makes sense for a brawny wizard who wants to focus on hitting to have to give up their fireballs and lightning bolts while doing so

Finally! About detecting hidden things... I've seen some debates about the spot skill, but I honestly don't know how they're progressing and I'm not entirely clear on how that skill is supposed to work. True sight is really quite expensive now, with hard to find components, but 'detect hidden' does the same thing (vs. hidden people) practically for free, so I really don't know what to say here.

Anyhow, this'd be my opinion! Thanks for your time.

[Elke]

What he said

I was more talking about the availability as well. In standard D&D you pay, uh, a standard 5 gp and then unless the DM feels mean that's all - that's it. You can also take my favorite feat, Eschew Material Components. Elke could not for a very long time cast a simple light-type spell because the component was -that- difficult to get hold of. In a, cast Locate Object and scry the whole world, and, um, no. In some stores, private caches, and, uh, the Pantheon store. But otherwise, no.

In standard D&D components are mostly there for flavor, if we're honest. I agree with Enig that i wouldn't object to removing the attack because it's really not that potent. But the simple fact of the matter is this. I have never tried to PK another character yet. But if I did, and it was a wizard, I would ignore the mighty Staff of Doodah, and the almighty Robes of Ancients etc etc as my one piece of loot...and go for the spell component pouch.

Well, actually I wouldn't, because that would be truly evil. But it's probably the most valuable, vital posession any wizard has. Forget spellbook - since spells aren't transferable by reading someone else's spellbook, it's those rare brightstones, darts, and yuan-ti eyes that are really worth having.

[Alvirin]

It's one of my concern wizards AND clerics, particularly clerics being able to cast spells and fight at the same time, mind a self-buffed wizard with the right feats wouldn't have a bad chance to it either, and a cleric healing himself as he fights, at the same time, well, that is not the more fair thing I can think.

And please don't forget about the dreaded of opportunity attacks while casting in melee, which is perhaps the main reason why fighters are needed in tabletop in first place, so the bad guys don't reach the spellcasters, how many spellcasters actually position themselves in the back rank? If a physically weak class place themselves willing at weapon's reach while performing tasks that require concentration (and this is the reason why casting spells cause attacks of opportunity in D&D) well they deserve anything that happen to them, this would remember wizards and clerics to some extent that their place doesn't belong too close to the fray, and more to the second/third line as has always been in D&D, just because this small detail the more martial/physical classes aren't as critical in FK.

Is really hard to say something that is not said about hide/spot/true sight, so please read the forums about those topics.

Yes, sometimes spellcasters are limited by spell components, but that is ought to change eventually, furthermore a wizard can meditate as many times wants, unleashing as many times they wish spells that actually can afford.

In short the crux of my argument (has always have been) is not making some classes more powerful or less powerful, although it might seem so, but rather making sure that most classes having something to offer to others, which generates cooperation which in the end generates RP.

Thanks to all you for your time and the constructive critics so far, this is the last message I will post in this particular topic because I think that my points have been clearly explained, I just hope that everyone understands that FK is a game as much about ourselves as invididual as ourselves as group, and that everyone regardless how much likes their favorite class deserves feel needed and useful.

[Aveline]

In short the crux of my argument (has always have been) is not making some classes more powerful or less powerful, although it might seem so, but rather making sure that most classes having something to offer to others, which generates cooperation which in the end generates RP.

Thanks to all you for your time and the constructive critics so far, this is the last message I will post in this particular topic because I think that my points have been clearly explained, I just hope that everyone understands that FK is a game as much about ourselves as invididual as ourselves as group, and that everyone regardless how much likes their favorite class deserves feel needed and useful.

I'm all for all the classes having something to offer in group situations, but if that is what you are after here, perhaps we should look at what to do with fighters, instead of what wizards should not have. If that is what you are really after.

back to the other topics that are being discussed.. I think in real life if Gesine went at anything with her staff they would realistically just laugh in her face and swat her away, so to me not being able to attack and cast at the same time wouldn't be a big deal. It doesn't really make a difference as a wizard, but as a cleric I can see how it could. My cleric being able to heal herself in the middle of something has saved her little skin many times.

As for the true sight spell, I really do not think that is an unbalancing factor anymore. Even if a wizard has the components, they aren't just going to use it at every turn like they used to. They have to be thoughtful about when and if they use it, and all of the wizards I know use it very rarely. Not only are the components expensive and rare, but they go 'poof' after every cast. They still have the ability to see you, but it happens a lot less often now. And to my knowledge, I do not think the detect hidden spell even detects hidden characters...just items.

I would very much like for my wizard to be in the back of all the formations and let all the fighters take the hits. But right now that just really isn't feasible because the last person to walk in the room gets pounded. So in actuality to have the fighters following the wizards makes the most sense in protecting your wizard. I think this has more to do with just tweaking things in the system rather than changing anything about fighters or wizards though. Even with her protections, right now, Gesine...a high leveled and experienced wizard cannot even go through the peaks without a fighter for very long. Four or five rooms of the goblins with spears and her stone skin is gone...and she is a dead duck. I'm not exaggerated, the goblins can and have creamed her. Fighters in my opinion already have a lot of use in a group. We just need the formations code and such to help us get more use out of the formations.

[Skeas]

I'd just like to point out here that realistically the guy who can throw a huge ball of roiling fire would probably have an advantage over the guy who can swing his sword 5 times a round.

But then, FR/FK are pretty far from being realistic, I guess.

I think a problem with our system is in that we've too many stat points to allocate- Instead of being a weak wizard or a dumb fighter, we're all the good-at-everything wizard/fighter/priest (because face it, no one plays thieves XD). If wizards weren't able to go over, say, 15 strength/con/whatever without sacrificing int in exchange, they'd be far less able to sit there and hand-to-hand a fighter, spitting acid and dropping ice comets on the poor, less-able fighter, with only platemail, a shield, a bladed weapon that isn't a dagger, disarm, bash, and 5 attacks+ kick/punch in their arsenal.


p.s.: I didn't forget you, pallies/bards. I have no idea what tricks you guys have, so no ability to comment.

[Briek]

There is no doubt that spellcasters are powerful, but then thats magic for, it's powerful. Putting aside all of the other points raised (componants/weak melee/low health and all the hours it takes to get a high level wizard) they are only powerful if they have the right spellset and if they are prepared, if they aren't they are about as usual as a stick of butter in a fight. Just to quote an example recently Briek and Gesine walked into Berdusk sewers, Gesine unprepared and SNAP she was down faster than you can say uncle.

I am not saying that spellcasters and especially clerics what with being able to wear heavy armour, cast and some pretty powerful domain spells with some faiths don't have an advantage in PvP, but if every class were equal that wouldn't be realistic in itself, magic always beats a sword in D&D thats the way it has always been, but if you catch a spellcaster unawares they are lunch meat and that in my mind is balance because as a fighter, paladin etc you are pretty much ready for action 24/7.

I agree there are some parts of the system that could be better so that grouping and formation is actually worth it, wizards I am sure don't even want to be at the front bashing the mobs with pathetic sticks, they would rather be at the back giving the mobs some serious spell power.

As for playing a fighter for RP reasons I believe there was a thread a while back about how we could make fighters a little more exciting, yes sometimes you have to be a little more imaginative with them, come up with something orginal but isn't that the point? I mean check out Drew with Harroghty, he is code-wise (or so I believe) a bog standard fighter but is also an awesome character to rp with.

I think I have ranted on long enough

[Alvirin]

I'm not saying that spellcasters mustn't be powerful, but rather removing the unfair advantages, advantages that they never had in D&D, and by having not them they have to look more towards other classes, increasing overall the usefulness of all the classes. Spellcasters are meant to be powerful but they also must have their weak areas which in the end is what leads them to need hep, as most classes have more than one or two weak areas as well.

[Zorinar]

Hello.
I play a wizard and wouldnt mind putting in my comments.
There were several points brought up that I would like to consider. For example, the statement that they can see hidden people. Well, the detect hidden spell only allows the ability to see hidden passages, not hiding people. I have never tested True Sight on someone invisible or hidden, it is said that True sight will allow you to see everyone, but.... no one casts that spell because the components are not around anymore. The point was brought up that one day the components will come back but.. they are not cheap. Every spell has a cost for us. Consider the price of being a wizard for a moment. A wizard has to first buy their spells, which costs me about 10 platinum or so.. There are a LOT of spells to buy. Each spell has component costs. In general, the components run out, sometimes every time you cast, sometimes up to about seven times. There are spells that cost me 25 platinum every two casts. If I were to buy all the sulpur required to grandmaster fireball, it would cost me around 800-1000 platinum, for that one spell. Fireshield... more than double that.

Add to that the fact that until the wizard gets a plethera of defensive spells, they are pretty much stuck to very low level areas. Soloing, I couldnt clear the howling peaks until I was in my late 20's level wise. In fact, Wizards are extremely underpowered at low levels, as it is in pnp D&D.

It was mentioned that casters can meditate whenever and get their spells back.. Well not really, no. Good roleplay should limit a caster's meditating to areas of non combat. Furthermore, even in a safe area, it can take me over 30 minutes to get enough spells back before feel comfortable in a hard area. Components are not readily available when adventuring and run out quickly, especially when you are casting a lot. When a wizard runs out of spells, its over for them. They are useless. Even my character, that has decent strength at the cost of other stats and just about a mastered double edged blade skill.. and using a magic sword.. I do ridiculously low amounts of damage with that sword. I think I do less than 1% on a warrior with the sword, if I can hit them. I use it only as a distraction to get warriors to try to disarm me and waste an action.

Dont forget concentration either, which is hard to train. I know we have all heard of those casters that have liked to set themselves to killmode-nofight and cast spells at mobs, (which I consider cheating because the mobs don't hit back but just get hit with spells..) but a caster that is allowing the mobs to hit them back (and not abusing code) has to deal with concentration checks. A failed check means that the spell is lost, along with components. When fighting someone with 5 attacks... a lot of spells can get wasted. In fact, I had a fight with wrok not too long ago and I was not able to launch even one spell successfully at him. I fell without touching him at all. (although priests ARE overpowered:))

I think the main difference between FK and the paper game is that there are a lot more magic items availabe in the paper game that give spell resistance or other effects that can nullify a caster. In my experience, priests are pretty much unstoppable here, but in the end, that is pretty much a player vs player issue. Playing the game against mobs, each class has strengths that can be clearly seen, and makes for great fun groups. When they fix the problem where people FOLLOWING the leader get hit more than the leader, wizards could actually get to stand behind the big warriors and have some protection. As it stand, wizards cant even do that. I have to stand in front and be the leader with the warriors following me in order for them to take the brunt of the hits.

All in all, I dont really feel there is an overpoweredness to wizards in general. I do agree that they get powerful at high levels and with high skill levels, but it does come with limitations.

Zor
(edited to clear up some word usage mistakes)

[Nedylene]

This seems to be an ongoing theme you bring up every few months. The question is, why fix what is not broken? Yes spellcasters can be powerful in the higher levels, but this is the same as tabletop and they are bloody difficult to get there. They are not overpowered and I can guarentee my level 50 druid is more powerful, easier to get through difficult areas then my level 50 invoker. They have perks, but so do priests. So do rogues, bards and every class. They are all unique and all have benefits and downsides. No matter how powerful your wizard is a dragon will make it go splat.. and fast.

So, why change it? It's not broken, they are not overpowered and there are other classes which need work. Fighter is the biggest one which has been improving in leaps and bounds and needs some appreciation.

[Alvirin]

As I said it's not a question of power, since spellcasters are powerful at their late levels, yes, but rather of being able to do things that shouldn't able.

Since nobody likes having nothing taken of their favorite classes, I propose giving additional second turns to all martial classes, since it's the same thing with spellcasters but in a positive sense.

[Enig]

I don't want to come off sounding like a jerk but I've just got to ask... Alvirin, have you actually been reading through the responses people have given you, or are you just pretending to? Just seems that it's sort of more like two one-way conversations than one two-way; other people keep bringing up their points and you keep bringing up yours and the two aren't meeting in any meaningful sense.

Simple fact is that because FK is a MUD and not a table-top game things can't be run exactly the same way. Sure, wizards get a few perks they wouldn't normally have, but these are countered by some pretty hefty disabilities that wouldn't be levied against them in a regular FR game, ie. close one door, open another. Likewise, fighters don't have to worry about reaching their opponents, they can choose to target someone in the back if they like, regardless of distance; a rather nice advantage, don't you think? But, like with the advantages wizards get it's balanced by similarly unique disadvantages.

I'd honestly like to think I understand where you're coming from here, too. Okay, wizards can do x, y, z, and a, as cool functions, and fighters can just hit, hit, hit, and maybe bash or trip. It's a matter of versatility, right? But giving fighters a bigger stick, or hitting wizards with it, doesn't seem like it's going to really solve the problem. If you want to give fighters an element of versatility you're going to have to do some original thinking. Maybe you could propose something to do with fighting styles, or fighter-based feats, or anything of the sort, just as a few examples off hand. I just think you're going to have better luck convincing people of the merits of a completely new idea than throwing out a sensational suggestion that seems designed more to illustrate a perceived injustice than to correct it.

[Nedylene]

Enig hit my thoughts perfectly. Why focus on demeaning a class that is already working just to bring your sense of balance? You have a brilliant mind, great ideas, Just why not try to focus it on BETTERING classes that need it instead of worsening classes that don't?

[Briek]

I believe several feats have already been introduced into the game in order to make fighters better, all they are lacking is trainers.

[Gwain]

In my experience, its always better to add to the mud then to take away. Though in some cases it is warranted for balance sake.

Wizards are a very difficult class to master, maintain and utilize alone or in a group. Priests are easier in some cases because of the mixture of martial power and the ability to use armour. It might do to add extra combat modes to fighters in the future to balance them out, but I've always felt that any class has its own strengths and weaknesses, which allows them to participate in the game world to different degrees.

Should spellcasters be weakened to make them less attractive then other classes? Probably not, no players should have to suffer to make other classes viable. The best course would probably be to wait out new feats that are fighter friendly as they begin to be introduced to the mud as a whole. Those should offer beneifits to fighter classes.

[Isaldur]

Can we please leave bards out of this conversation? The class is gimped with FK combat mechanics and skill/spell training as is.

[Belose]

I know of 2 spellcasters who are in the low 30's in level, who have real trouble in going out to solo. And has a hard time finding groups who are going adventuring. They mostly end up RPing, but still would love to go and adventure. The thing is, they probably have the capability to go out and open a can of whup...well, you know.. but they really haven't learned how to use their spells effectively to do that.. and it's also being able to figure out the best ones you'll need to fight AND protect your hindparts because it's hard to meditate to get your spells back in the middle of a fight! Or switching spells, even...
anyway... how many people actually notice that even though they might be casting, their spells and prayers aren't going off because they lose their concentration? I've been told their concentration skills have not moved at all since they learned them. Uhm, well.. that's my two cents for the person who keeps complaining to me about this stuff.. wish I could figure out how to help them. Hope they can learn what they need from this thread.

[Brodnur]

[quote="Skeas"]I think a problem with our system is in that we've too many stat points to allocate- Instead of being a weak wizard or a dumb fighter, we're all the good-at-everything wizard/fighter/priest (because face it, no one plays thieves XD). [quote]

Just a note, I play pretty much all classes of character, call it A.D.D. or whatever, I often become bored with playing the same char all the time, and feel the need to switch from my fighter, to my cleric, to my wizard, to ranger, to thief. ( And yes, some folk to play thieves, but if they are good, you'll never know it, til it's too late! ) But anyway, all the classes have their strong points/weak points, happy medium points, etc. But wizards, at the higher levels in nearly every game I've played, PnP or video, are just freakin scary powerful. But on the same hand, so are fighters, when well trained, experienced in the arts of war. Neither one of them would be the kind I'd want to tick off IRL. I agree, as do my wizards, that while casting a spell, we shouldn't be able to hit an opponent with their weapons of choice. Same for every other spellcasting class. Seeing as how the weapons do very little damage anyway, it isn't much of a loss, more in the way of being accurate than anything. One of my fighters once sparred a fairly high level mage, his first thought was to disarm her, and when doing so, only ticked her off and he pretty much got hammered from then on out. (He lost .. badly, btw ) Compared to 20 or so magic missiles, a staff, no matter how enchanted, is a small loss, other than the blow to the ego of the uber wizard of doom.
(Ending rant now ) Just my thoughts on the matter

[Mele]

I just want to point out something here I'm surprised no one has mentioned.

In order to be a functional caster (Be it wizard or cleric) you must seek and train a good handful of spells. No wizard can walk into a battle without buffs.

To gain these spells, you must first a: Spend hours gaining exp. then b: spend hours gaining COIN. then c: spend hours finding spells. then d: spend hours earning coin for the components of the spells and last e: spend months using the spells to even get the minimal skill up, costing you components, bringing you back to d.

If a fighter wants to gm second attack, the spend hours sitting in a room of dummies typing k d. If a spell caster wants to gm a spell they go through a long process of coins and components.

Futher, an average spell caster has over one hundred spells. To learn at minimal half of those spells is EASILY a sum of over 200-300 platinum.

Bottom line : Spell casters work their asses off to be able to at least survive gaining exp. Only when they have done all of this work, and finished their leveling are they even a mild threat to anything. Only after hours upon hours of training can a wizard attain even a respectable amass of spells and survivability. There is no person that wakes up one day, makes a wizard and has it at an impressively powerful level of ability within a month. These people work hard and long. Longer than any fighter ever needs to kill dummies for certain.

My favorite thing in the world to say: Stop worrying about others and what they're doing and what they have. Worry about what you've got and you'll do great with it.