Attention Faith Managers

[Aveline]

I haven't given an update in a while...so:
Done: Bane, Beshaba, Chauntea, Corellon, Cyric, Garl, Gruumsh, Helm, Ilmater, and Kelemvor.

You probably haven't been seeing many changes because I've been working on some of the more tedious things like adding links and keywords. And figuring out who I need to bother for famous characters/faith managers helpfiles.

But, something that is completely done, is that you should now be able to look up any coded god by their symbol. If you see a symbol in game and you do not recognize it you should be able to type 'help tiny gauntlet holy symbol with an eye on it', help 'tiny gauntlet with an eye on it', or 'help tiny gauntlet with an eye' and it will direct you to Helm's helpfile. If you run across an uncoded symbol..well.. just too bad for now, and ask ICly (A project to come after this one perhaps). I'm asking those of you of the various faiths to check various ways someone might look up your symbol if they see it. If you come across a way to phrase it that I haven't added, let me know. For example, if you have a Kelemvorite, and you think someone might type in 'skeletal hand' looking up your holy symbol, and you type that and it doesn't bring up the helpfile...let me know.

Some I won't add because it might be too closely associated with another god, or something else in game. For instance, I'm not going to add 'moon' out of 'a crescent moon moon holy symbol' for Corellon. Moon can go with too many other things.

Those of you that I have pestered so far, I've only gotten one FM helpfile thus far. Once I get some more of these tedious things finished up (Which I should today) for the gods I have done already, things will be moving more quickly with adding the other helpfiles in, so I'll be pestering you again. I know where to find you all, and I WILL find you

For those gods that are done already, check to make sure there are no keywords missing. Anything you can think of that should be a keyword for that god (Aliases and such) check them to make sure they direct you to that god. If not, let me know. Thanks for all the help everyone!

[Raona]

I just want to offer a big public thank-you to the players of Mariela and Aveline for tackling this herculean task, which is of most importance to our newest players. It's a pretty thankless task, in that the people that will benefit most from it probably won't realize that it was done, let alone by who, but I can tell you that it is no small potatoes to do.

So, a big thank-you to both of you!

[Aveline]

I got motivated today and got a few more done. We can add Lathander, Lloth, Loviatar, and Malar to the done list.

There are only three faiths left that we need info for! So let's get that taken care of! Gond, Mielikki, and Tymora...with all of you Tymorans out there....SHAME! (Love you guys, really! Sorry if someone sent one before, but I don't have it.)

[Dovan]

For shame you lazy Tymoran's. For shame!

[Aveline]

For shame you lazy Tymoran's. For shame!

...Says the Tymoran that forgot to submit the helpfile with his finger wagging Double shame

[Peverell]

They're too busy playing cards to do something as boring as *writing*...

Just wanted to echo Raona's thanks - the new keywords are especially helpful. When I started playing FK I had no clue about any of the religions, and being able to type in the holy symbol/deity alias would have helped a lot. So on behalf of future newbs who will make use of this without realising it wasn't always the case, I salute you.

[Aveline]

Done: Bane, Beshaba, Chauntea, Corellon, Cyric, Garl, Gruumsh, Helm, Ilmater, Kelemvor, Lathander, Lloth, Loviatar, Malar, Mask, and Moradin.

Thanks to Nearraba for sending in information on Mielikki. So now all we need info on is Gond and Tymora.

Helpfiles that have enough information but that are waiting to be added in: Mielikki, Mystra, Oghma, Selune, Shar, Sune, Talona, Talos, Tempus, Torm, Tyr, Umberlee, Waukeen, Yondalla

We are halfway done!

[Dovan]

Well if it's crunch time and no one else can step up... I guess I can try. I'm not the greatest on putting this stuff together nor do I have the knowledge others might have. Whichever the four... I'll see what I can do tonight while at work and pass it along.

[Dovan]

Alright... I hammered out something in word for a bit now. Do with this as you feel anyone and pick it apart. All I can say is I tried, right? What's the worst that can happen?

Tymora
=======
Lady Luck, The Lady Who Smiles, Our Smiling Lady, Tyche’s Fair Haired Daughter
Holy Symbol : A Silver Coin Holy Symbol
Followers : Tymoran(s)
Cleric Alignments : NG, CG, CN
Follower Alignments : Any
Enemies : Beshaba
Allies : Lathander, Selune (minor friendships to Brandobaris, Garl Glittergold, and Erevan Ilesere)
Current Faith Manger : ???

Luck incarnate in all forms and manner. She carries the portfolios of Good Fortune, Skill, Victory, and Adventuring. Tymora is who many seek when life deals them poor cards or those seeking to gain further glory and establish their name throughout the realms.

Born from half of the original Goddess Tyche, Tymora rose as the Fair Haired child of this occurrence. Tymora was granted the better attributes of Her mother, grace and kindness. As well though rose Her sister, Beshaba to which an immediate animosity was born. Tymora’s sister instead inherited some of Tyche’s less favorable attributes in the form of bitterness and malevolence. From this moment forth, each has fought each other as does a coin would fight itself when flipped for dominance.

In this fight it is spoke an order has emerged, The Fellows of Free Fate or as well known as the Triffs. Reserved for senior members of the church, the Triffs seek out and strike down misfortune and those who would spread it in Beshaba’s name, namely the Black Fingers.

Dogma : One should be bold, for to be bold is to live. A brave heart and a willingness to take risks beat out a carefully wrought plan nine times out of ten. Place yourself in the hands of fate and trust to your own luck. Bear and conduct yourselves as your own masters, showing your good and bad fortune as confidence in the Lady. Chase your own unique goals, and the Lady aids the chase. Without direction or goals, you soon know the embrace of Beshaba, for those on no set course are at the mercy of misfortune, which has no mercy at all.

[Glim]

Alright, took a look at the helpfile for Malar and only a few things to correct.

--Malar will accept any alignment worshipper.

--Malar cannot have Lawful Evil or Chaotic Evil druids and all priests of Malar are druids. Only Neutral Evil or Chaotic Neutral priests can be druids of Malar. Things get a little complicated when we start talking about True Neutral druids of Malar because technically by the two step rule, they should not be allowed (if we are even applying that to druids and not just priests) but for the longest time druids could only be TN, so I feel some leeway here should be allowed.

-- Superior: This is something I was always under the impression that is one of the differences between FK and FR. I was under the impression that in FK, all gods are equal and one does not necessarily rules over or is lesser or more powerful than another. I'd actually like to know if this is correct.

--Allies are mostly right: Loviatar and Bane are commonly stated as a ally of Malar in most sources, though I have never seen much of a connection in dogmas to justify this. Bane still represents civilization (albeit an evil one) and I couldn't justify seeing Malar being able to relate much with him. I could see more of a connection with Lovi than Bane.

--Foes are a bit off: Malar's biggest foe is Chauntea (she represents a civilized nature, everything Malar stands against) with Selune (they compete for Lycanthropes) and Mielikkie (also at opposite ends of the spectrum, though to a lesser extent than Chauntea) coming in at a tied second, I would say.

--Sune and Ilmater have always been stated as enemies of Malar, but I honestly can't see them being big on his list. Malar doesn't care about beauty and love and the connection with Ilmater is about as strong as the connection with Lovi.

--The Gods of Fury encompass Talos, Umberlee, Auril, and Malar.

--The reference link here: http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/humangods/Malar.htm that is stated in the helpfile is a good one but is also 2nd Ed and a bit outdated. This is also a good one, though a bit shorter: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Malar

When I say it is outdated, I mean that in 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed Malar got a bit of a change. He stopped hating all druids and the balance. Now he mostly just hates non-evil druids, though of course the goodly ones moreso than the neutral ones. I think they (as in the FR canon sources) started to realize that Malar is a part of the balance, he is the evil part, to counterweight and balance out the goodly parts of Mielikkie and Chauntea. The opening of alignments for druids in 3rd Ed helped and influenced this.

I can also submit a bit more info into the flavor entry if it is allowed that will describe Malar in a bit more detail.

Btw, I really appreciate whoever did Malar's helpfile and if I sound critical I do not mean to.

[Moloch]

-- Superior: This is something I was always under the impression that is one of the differences between FK and FR. I was under the impression that in FK, all gods are equal and one does not necessarily rules over or is lesser or more powerful than another. I'd actually like to know if this is correct.

Malar, Auril, and Umberlee should all be listed as subordinate to Talos, to the best of my knowledge. This is mainly because of their place in the Gods of Fury.

[Glim]

Agreed. I was under this impression because of an announcement to that effect years ago. Things can easily have changed since then

[Kirkus]

What was this announcement? I missed it.

I would not agree that their place among the Gods of Fury should relegate Auril, Malar, and Umberlee to mere subordinates of Talos. Among the Gods of Fury Talos is the strongest, yes, and the leader. But its not, at least as I see it, like a group that has yearly meetings. The churches work together when their paths are one and the same, or better said, when their acting together wouldn't conflict with one groups plans. Now Talos would have the weight to insist upon Malar but I don't see it going much past that.

It really is an interesting dynamic, going through and reading how these four interact. Talos has no problem with usurping parts of other deities portfolios. Heck he even makes a hobby out of elevating mortals to godhood and then siphoning off their power. He tries to take any bit of dominion he can, for instance, he tried to take wild magic from Mystra but was forestalled. He does this to Auril, but their relationship remains close and cordial. The portfolio stealing between them is kinda like friendly rivalry. Umberlee is much the same way. Talos's scope of influence is literally the entire world, Umberlee's is the oceans and seas and the land immediately touching it. So he encroaches upon her domain, but probably looses it back to her because he looses interest in whatever it was he took. There is a line in Umberlee's dogma that I find amusing, 'Slay those who ascribe sea and shore storms to Talos'. Auril and Malar despise each other. Talos is constantly stealing bits and pieces from Auril and Umberlee. The Gods of Fury are by no means held together the same way as the Triad of Tyr, Torm and Ilmater.

Sorry, thats my long winded way of saying that I disagree that the other Gods of Fury are subordinates of Talos.

[Kallias]

1st ed

Talos is described as one of “The Gods of Fury,” which is what these four gods are known as collectively: "Talos is served by Auril, Umberlee, and Malar."

This hasn't really been retconned - the thing about deity politics in FR is based often on the futility of a lesser god being able to overtake a major god...there just isn't much a lesser deity can do to a deity with higher rank, especially on an individual level. I've always viewed it as the literal version of mexican (perhaps originated in spain but in america we learn about it in mexico) politics called camarilla where it's very openly a coat-tail system - you ride as far up as you can and wait your turn - not unusual in practice, but unusual in how open and accepted it is.

While it does happen, the circumstances are insane and is written to be a major event that wasn't suppose to happen. If you go to look at the benefit of divine rank levels just something as simple as 1 level higher, the benefits are enormous.

If Talos (or any other greater deity) pointed to any lesser god, and demanded service, he'd either get service, lesser god is destroyed, or the most likely scenario of another deity of equal or greater power coming to the lesser god's aid. Very few gods are willing to pick fights with foes who have a real chance of ruining their station - so the practice is to basically pick off the weak, in Talos' case. Cyric/Bane doesn't give a rip about all that nature crap. The good deities certainly won't put their neck on the line for them, and the primordials the majority of the time don't even know who the other gods are.

And Talos really only has localized worshippers in Faerun, the continent also supports Kara-tur and Zakhara where he has no power in those regions (compared to local gods there, or demons in Zakhara's case)...plus all the other continents. I get what you're saying when you imply his scope is the entire world, because his domains can exist anywhere above ground...but that doesn't mean he controls them. The storms exist without his influence in regions where he has no influence.

It's not even clear that Ao is the over god of these other pantheons, since they compare so terribly to eachother in purpose and structure. I just like talking about the metaverse of all of FR lines...don't even get me started on the true structure of deities revealed in Spelljammer. Spelljammer is basically one giant spoiler alert that never got retconned...and likely never will.

[Kirkus]

This discussion is getting a bit off topic so it should be taken to the Deity and Faiths board...

That being said.. I don't know what retconned means but all of my info comes from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Faiths and Pantheons, which are, at least in my opinion, fairly accurate and probably 3rd edition if I am not mistaken.

While I will agree with you that the church of Talos is predominantly in Faerun, and any thing outside of that single continent his church is virtually non existent, I do not agree that that fact means he has no abilities in places like Zakhara and Kara-Tur. For instance, Talos can sense any natural destructive force 16 days before it happens, I am under the impression that that means anywhere. A tornado in Zakhara, Talos knows about it. An earthquake in the Underdark, Talos knows about it. True, he has no one in these parts, except maybe the Underdark( I haven't looked through that source book in quite some time) and if there is a presence there it is not worth mentioning, thus all Talos could do would be to enjoy the show or cause a natural disaster in those areas.

As to a greater deity being able to demand anything of a deity of lesser strength... This has been bugging me and I just figured out why. I will use a Talassian example, simply because thats what I know best. Talos is a Greater Deity, he hates anything that promotes building or creating. Gond is a Intermediate Deity, he likes to build stuff. They don't get along very well. So why doesn't Talos just destroy him? If he could, I like to think that he would, as he is vengeful and often motivated by the desire to never appear weak or compromising. There has to be some reason he hasn't already killed Gond.

[Briek]

Most likely the reason he has not killed Gond (just to use that example) is what Kallias pointed out, politics. Gond has allies and friends whom I sure Talos knows would come to help him if any attack was made and Talos wouldn't want to risk losing just so he can kill Gond, because his portfolio would only be absorbed by another power, making Talos an enemy of somebody else. As far as I am aware it has even been that long in a mortal sense since the Godswar, I bet all the deities are a bit tentitive when it comes to risking divinity after that.

[Nysan]

Good a place as any for this...

When I am bored, I haunt the helpfiles, looking for errors (I miss the helpfile error thread ). Nice way to kill time waiting on meditation or MV points. Anyways, I stumbled across something I had a question about in the deity help files:

Talona's helpfile reads:

-------
Talona
======
Talona is the goddess of disease and poison. She requires her priests to
maintain chaotic neutral, chaotic evil, or neutral evil alignments. Her other
followers can be chaotic neutral, or any evil alignment.

Talona is depicted as an old crone who trails misfortune and death behind
her. Talona is the goddess of plague and disease, her followers are expected
to go about quietly and seek out new diseases. Talona allies with Bhaal and
Shar, but has enemies in Chauntea, Loviatar, Mielikki, Silvanus, Sune,
Lliira, Kelemvor, Tyr, and Shiallia.Followers of Talona take pain as if it were pleasure. They believe death is
more powerful than life, though they are equal in balance. Work in her name
and let your doings be subtle or spectacular.

Followers of Talona may use their high favor to supplicate (see help
supplicate) for recall to a safe haven and resurrection. If they are
extremely holy, they may ask for and recieve artifacts of Talona.

(A) Destruction Domain (B) List of Deities
(C) Suffering Domain
------------

Bolded/Underlined the question area... Every source I have found regarding Talona lists Loviatar as an ally or "tolerates" each other. Example:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Talona

Is there some source I missed that claims otherwise? My resources are a bit limited these days, so I'm curious if the few sites I do use are outdated or flawed.

[Aveline]

Just as an update here, this is still in the works, just waiting for a few commands to be fixed so I can work on it more.

And as for Talona.. I don't think they are necessarily enemies, but they aren't friendly. I don't have my sources in front of me but they are supposed to be rivals of sorts. Loviatar looks down on Talona and teases her, and Talona envies Loviatar for her looks, the respect she has around the realms and her following.

In game it seems to be pretty divided as to how the relationship should be played out. Some people RP the faith as friends, some just try to ignore the other and snarl in passing and others play it off as an all out enemy status. I personally have gotten the general impression from above that the follwers of each shouldn't have much to do with each other. Any encounters should not be friendly or cooperative and be filled with insults.

I have seen different sources all say different things. I would also like a definite answer from someone as to how we in FK should treat the relationship between the faiths. I don't care much about what FR says or... where ever people might look. It seems to be a really fuzzy area and I just want to know what -we- should do.

While he lived, Talona served Bhaal along with Loviatar, though Loviatar and Talona and are fierce rivals. Loviatar loves to torment and tease Talona over her ugly appearance, her scanty number of followers, her cowardly and ineffectual attacks, and her puny portfolio (in Loviatar’s words). Needless to say, Talona openly delights in any setbacks Loviatar experiences, and sometimes even aids good adventurers if she thinks they will damage Loviatar’s reputation. Talona has recently cultivated an alliance with Shar

I got to looking and found that in my notes. So...no answer from me, but I've been wondering the same thing.
Also, I just pulled up the new helpfile that was submitted for Talona and whoever sent that one in also lists Loviatar as an enemy.

[Layna]

Faiths and Avatars lists Loviatar and Talona as foes in both of their entries - the quote in Aveline's post is taken from Talona's entry in that book. It's also repeated in more or less the same form under Loviatar's entry. The 3.5ed Faiths and Pantheons says that Loviatar loves to torment and tease Talona, and that Talona hates Loviatar for her cruel teasing.

Nonetheless, house rules trump canon, so a house ruling would be grand.

Edit to add this link where the relationship is discussed.

[Nysan]

Glad to see I am not the only one confused on the relationship. It seems to jump around alot on various sources, though I blame that on some working on older editions than others.

I have always taken the "tolerates but annoyed by" approach in-game, just doesn't feel right treating the other's faithful the same way they would treat Ilmater or Tyr's faithful. I am very curious what the house rules would be though. I can only manage so many characters hated by their own faith.