Know Alignment: Not Fair?

[Isolrem]

Even as a persistant-spelled evil detector, I think that these spells should be removed from the game as they do indeed detract from RP- My cleric of Tyr (being very, very overzealous) will often judge people based on their aura and as much as I'd -like- to be able to RP with some deceptive evils, I'm too addicted to knowing what's going on to suddenly blind myself (maybe a nice immortal could remove the spell from my character, as I forget where I learned it). I DO think, however, that the paladins' version of perma-detect-evil should remain. It is a different matter altogether and when someone has gone through all of the knightly RP and earned their paladinhood, they are more mature players who will use the spell to further RP, instead of close the lid on what could be.

I agree with this completely, every priest in the game being able to detect evil/good/chaos 24/7 is a much bigger problem for RP than know alignment. Casting know alignment is an invasive and rude gesture, and anyone who spams it on everyone they see it better have a damn good reason (a higher component cost may reflect this). The so called D&D canon and why game mechanics "makes sense" are very poor arguments for the way things are now (and talk about what alignment really means is even further from the topic). FK is not typical D&D, and the roleplay that occurs here is not the same as occurs in Pen and Paper. In the novels, are the baddies always instantly called out by any priest who happens to be near? Clearly not. The changes proposed by Skeas would not affect how mobs perceive PCs (and thus keep all the hardcoded restrictions Gwain mentioned), but will make roleplay much more lively.

[Kallias]

The so called D&D canon and why game mechanics "makes sense" are very poor arguments for the way things are now (and talk about what alignment really means is even further from the topic). FK is not typical D&D, and the roleplay that occurs here is not the same as occurs in Pen and Paper.

I disagree with this. The problem is the FK atmosphere. Good and Evil persist together all the time, and cooperate. The problem is that good and evil in FK are considered factions instead of what they should be...view points.

This atmosphere is a throwback to when the game was run by people who thought they should always be fighting nonstop, and should never associate.

[Nysan]

This atmosphere is a throwback to when the game was run by people who thought they should always be fighting nonstop, and should never associate.

I just had a flashback of the old "no evils in Waterdeep" policy... spooky.

I wouldn't say everyone is stuck in the old mindsets, but I can still see its influence now and then... especially when a 'good' character admits to interacting with 'bad' characters. However, the overall reaction to such things has improved over the years. A farcry from the old days.

To the topic at hand, I agree that finding alignments is much, much easier than hiding them. Granted, I have no stake in the topic since my evils are fairly open with their evil (or mildly annoying) natures. Still, it always rubbed me the wrong way to see someone TRY to hide their nature only to have their, sometimes extensive, prep work busted by a lvl 1 spell. *shrug*

[Raona]

FK *is* different from a typical pen & paper game in that (at least the possibility of) long-running good PC vs evil PC is possible. In a PnP game, almost always, everyone there is working toward the same goal - they may differ in alignments and how they go about it, perhaps the thief is constantly nicking things from the other PCs, but rare, in my experience, is the DM who can and will shepherd more than one main story line along, or even have two groups working against each other. The interaction mode doesn't allow for secrecy, among other problems.

One of the few advantages of a MUD game is that you can have so many players, operating independently, yet free to interact. To the extent that detect alignment spells dampen the fun of that, I think, it's a bad thing.

I see the following as possible fixes (brainstorming here):
1. Make detect alignment/know alignment work only on mobiles
2. Change the infallibility of detect alignment/know alignment as proposed above: perhaps less practiced casters would be readily swayed by charisma, more likely to mistake someone of high charisma as being of their own alignment. Also raise the component cost.
3. Change the playerbase's take on what the spell results mean. This is unlikely to work, as it requires asking people to not apply ICly something they know OOCly, and some have already fessed up that it's near impossible. However, this is something asked of paladins, who have "detect evil" on all the time. Our lessons are very explicit about our not associating with evil: it's a paladin no-no, we aren't supposed to do it. This passive skill makes it possible (otherwise we'd be breaking it all the time). However, we are asked to interpret the detection not as "I know this bloke is evil" but rather "you feel (distinctly) uncomfortable around this person." When Raona is approached by an evil and asked for/about something, she's usually quite receptive, at first, no matter what. But if they are in her physical presence for a long time, she starts to develop a sense of foreboding, of unease. She doesn't know where it is coming from, but it goes away shortly after the source does, and that usually gives her some idea. I RP her as not even knowing that it is an evil alignment that triggers this, though. Asking priests to emulate this is asking a lot, in part because it greatly waters down these spells (which they have to work to learn). It may be possible to re-code the echoes, such that rather than showing auras, detect evil echoes "You feel uneasy, and want to leave" or somesuch after a certain time in the presence of an evil. Then, at least in MS, it would be (more) difficult to pin down the cause. Perhaps tiny NPC critters could be planted on goods to give them an evil aura and thus the same echo, too.

[Skeas]

3. Change the playerbase's take on what the spell results mean.

...However, we are asked to interpret the detection not as "I know this bloke is evil" but rather "you feel (distinctly) uncomfortable around this person."

I really like this- I think I'll start implementing this into my own detect evil RP.

[Keltorn]

There's something I wish I had suggested previously in regards to these spells, but especially Know Alignment. I've always seen that particular spell as being very invasive. It is not simply picking up on emanations of a particular alignment in the general area. It is very much a targeted spell that looks into the heart and soul of a specific person. It seems the kind of thing an inquisition would use, the sort of thing that guards should not be able to use without a warrant (if their laws worked like modern ones, that is).

When it is cast on one of my characters or a friend, I will (assuming my spellcraft skill succeeded to identify the spell) tend to take offense with the spellcaster. After all, they just performed the equivalent of taking my pack and rifling through it for anything incriminating, then acting as though their actions were nothing more than a handshake. Except with my soul.

I realize this is not the perfect fix to the situation being described since the problem feels more like an OOC one, but I think an IC reaction to someone casting this spell all willy-nilly isn't out of the question. It's very rude, I think, and I try to make sure the spellcaster knows it, regardless of what alignment I might be.

As for the detect spells, they are not so targeted. They have a duration and pick up on everything that the caster looks at. So, they can be cast long before looking at someone and, in fact, the caster has little control over who he or she might look at. As such, I can't really use the reaction I described earlier unless the person sits right in front of me, casts Detect Evil, then just stares at me.

Of course, a very great deal of this is just personal opinion. It's how I choose to roleplay in that situation. I don't like unsolicited castings of Know Alignment, but to each their own.

[Raona]

I find know alignment only appropriate for things like faithing requests, or something of that magnitude. (I sometimes use it for Watch applicants.) There's a OOC alignment requirement, and ICly, you are putting a LOT on the line faithing/sponsoring this person to the Academy - they should fully expect you will look into their soul. Other than that, though, I concur with you, Keltorn.

Another thought on making detect spells non-individual specific: hidden factors of other alignment could make things interesting indeed. You have detect evil on and are adventuring with your new buddy Fred. But unknownst to you, Sharkey the evil rogue is trailing you as well. You start getting the "distinctly uncomfortable" echo... Or a coven of witches is scheming a plot, and one with detect good senses unease...is it a spy, or one of her ostensible confederates?

[Elke]

Casting know alignment is an invasive and rude gesture, and anyone who spams it on everyone they see it better have a damn good reason (a higher component cost may reflect this).

When it is cast on one of my characters or a friend, I will (assuming my spellcraft skill succeeded to identify the spell) tend to take offense with the spellcaster. After all, they just performed the equivalent of taking my pack and rifling through it for anything incriminating, then acting as though their actions were nothing more than a handshake. Except with my soul.

I agree absolutely, with this, it's very rude and smacking of immense distrust. Even if you are a shiny goodie and have nothing to hide, you have every reason to take askance to this, and this has happened in play on more than one occasion that I can think of. I'd also suggest that it's casting might have a longer lag or at least that people get into the habit of warning people, so that ICly appropriately responses can be made ("I back off to out of what I think is your range," "I draw my sword and stare at you in a, 'are-you-really-going-to-finish-that' sort of way", or even "I get out my lead sheet" )

Really though, I'd add that detecting as evil doesn't necessarily mean having done anything greatly unpleasant, after all, one third of people on the street will also have an 'evil' aura - representing that they are mildly obnoxious, not that they are the darkest, most heinous of sinners.

[Nysan]

My characters use 'know alignment' and detection spells sparingly as well. Mostly with faith matters, but that is it as far as PCs are concerned.

Personally, I simply do not see their value in PCs. I've seen good aligned characters lie and turn on people. On the same note, I've seen "evils" save PCs' lives. Far too easy to get stuck in the black/white perspective detection spells create and completely overlook/ruin great RP events.

I'll use them extensively in regards to mobs and items though. *shrug*

[Rodon]

Well its great that you all use it sparingly and try not to out every single evil you see, but there a lot of people that are not as nice as you. As for the argument that an evil can just say he is not evil after a detect spell, the cleric that cast that spell will undoubtedly claim that his deity showed him the evil's heart and that it is indeed evil, and who can argue against that? Inexpirienced players will always side with the goodly cleric that is pointing the finger and dub the evil character as such. They tell people and then your reputation is ruined, and then you are screwed. Three times I have tried to beat down a bad reputation of being evil on FK without ever doing anything evil in front of anyone, but people always side with the know alignment caster. I think a heavy component cost would be good, or just keep it a paladin and high level priest spell. Its not really the spell that I hate as much as I hate how it is used. If it was somehow made clear to everyone how it should be treated and that it is not a spell that allows you to know absolutely that someone is evil and can never be anything else, then hell, lets keep it, but I highly doubt you can make everyone treat it that way.

[Casious]

This is an interesting topic. I personally do not view this spell as unfair in any way. Priests have always been able to look into the hearts of others and their their intent. Invasive.. rude.... no more so than a thief's ability to steal. I personally don't see why a change needs to be done at all. For priests, there are definitely more reasons why they should cast this spell than reasons why they shouldn't. If people want to hide their identity, perhaps priests can be granted the spell to hide their alignment, and be able to cast it on others. (This spell might already exist? I'm not sure.)

When my character learns this spell he will be casting it profusely until he is able to persist it. It just makes sense for a priest to know the hearts of others before they bestow the blessings of their deity upon them. However, the mud is small compared to the virtual world it occupies, for someone to announce the evilness or goodness of someone they just saw to even the people in the same room with him or her, would effectively be like announcing it to half the world. Soon everyone would know when they probably shouldn't. Perhaps we can ask that the priests don't directly announce their findings to everyone in the mud but just use the information to guide their own personal interactions with the target. That's how I plan on using it anyway. After all, the FR world is huge and its conceivable that the priest will never run into anyone that would have dealings with the target of the spell in the future.

[Gwain]

The honest truth is, that its not at all an unfair spell icly. There are certain alignments that should not go certain places or tarry for they are in a sense, pure evil. And its a deliberate decision of the player in question to make their characters this evil. When they are found out though, its important to remember that for the most part, you are free to travel and ignore accusations. No one can kill or maim you over your alignment alone. Oocly is is a bit annoying to be tested for alignment right off at the beginning, and to have your actions gauged from that spell alone. But that could be pointed out. If such is not believed, there are certainly places and people more accepting of darker alignments.

I may contradict my earlier statements here, but I have had a bit of time to think about things, I personally can gauge alignments by using one of these methods below:

1. Asking someone if they're evil, only an evil person admits to being evil, only an evil person lies about being evil
2. Looking at the clothing people wear
3. Judging mannerisms and descriptions.
4. Jumping to conclusions that people are not prepared for.

This usually only work on players and are more fun than alignment spells themselves.

I really don't think that the spells need to be empowered, I would not frown on an expansion of non detection, but honestly it seems like a very minor issue only a very small minority is experiencing.