Faith Advancement - High Ranks

[Lathlain]

I'm sorry - are you suggesting that faith managers who aren't willing to promote adventurers to the inner circles of a church are risking their followers leaving for another faith?

Frankly, I say 'good riddance'! This isn't a job - it's a church. This is unquestioning devotion to a higher power, and you don't earn advancements simply through length of service. Should all famous Roman Catholics be advanced as figureheads for fear of them going to another church?

Bear in mind as well that not everyone is suited to a position of authority. Although you're welcome to argue this point ICly with your faith manager on this point, you must be willing to accept that you may be wrong, and that it certainly isn't your right.

[Briek]

I agree with ed here, it is a lifetime commitment for your character
and as with most things, recognition only comes with hard work and potential. As said if your FM doesn't believe that your character is suited for a senior position then thats just how it is because he/she is the big cheese with the corner of office on the top floor and the fancy office chair

It is my opinon that even if your FM isn't around to notice your input, the IMMs will be so getting involved, organising events etc all works towards promotion.

[Kallias]

Should all famous Roman Catholics be advanced as figureheads for fear of them going to another church?

First off keep in mind comparing denouncing the catholic church to go to islam is entirely different than denouncing Thor and going to Odin...that said, there are certainly plenty of examples. Think if Joan of Arc publicly denounced catholicism or a specific saint in catholicism, or when the scandinavian and roman leadership actually did denounce their traditional religions. The populace follows doers of great deeds, they don't follow ethos. Heroes of old religions are turned into Saints of the invading religion so people follow along - there are literally dozens of examples of this.

The religious atmosphere is not modern religion. The religious atmosphere is medieval. Religion is more of a political party than it is a medium to an afterlife. Everyone in Faerun has faith that the gods exist...it's never a matter of faith. The gods are in constant war, and a religious leader who can't keep his heroes would be looked down on much more harshly than a hero who leaves a faith.

Of course this is all needs to be filtered through a PC's personality and personal dedication to a god, I'm just bringing up the view that the finger pointing goes both ways. The hardest part in talent management, is keeping your talent satisfied.

[Isaldur]

I think everyone should also take a step back and look at religion in FK through a different lense. We all live in an a moderately-to-heavily enlightened time where we are free to change, question, or refuse Religion. This is due to many social and economic differences most modernized countries have adopted, especially when compared to how religion worked even just four hundred years ago.

Yes many religions use their power, clout, faith, etc to become a type of business organization in FK which also mirrors some parts of real life. You need a friend resurrected? That will be 1,000 Gold please. Need divine assistance of some sort? Give us money unless you're friendly with our faith or we're the kind of faith that does stuff for free.

Some real life Religions used to mirror this in a slightly different way by paying to absolve yourself of anything the religion sees as a sin or crime before your time is up, or to pay for your father's crimes etc so they don't pile on.

Does this occur in our current enlightened day and age? No (Maybe if you count the guys on TV that tell you to donate or they will be taken away). Did it happen during the time period that Medieval / Psuedo-Rennisance Forgotten Realms and most styles of fantasy are "based" off of? Yes. Some faiths may even delve further into this type of economics because of their beliefs, I.E. Helm hires out Bodyguards, Waukeen hires out specialy trained revenue service personel, Lliira hires out Ryan Reynolds to plan College Parties etc.

Furthermore while real life has its atheists and skeptics (myself included) who can easily refute or try to explain away and deny any type of faith, in Forgotten Realms you have gods that have walked among the populaces. They have sired offspring, led wars, and fought one another, and generally made themselves known to the point where they are as accepted as "truth and real" to the same extent as religion was a few hundred or more years ago. A few hundred years ago if you converted to another faith, depending on the area you lived, you could be hailed as a prophet or a heretic. Touted as the voice of the god, or killed outright for blasphemy. It's the same in FK.

What I'm suggesting is everyone look at faiths from a perspective of how a native of Forgotten Realms looks at them instead of our own world view. The gods exist, it is known they can die, it is known they can make mistakes, and there are many of them. Depending on the deity in question the faith may be run more like a business, or more like an army, or more like a charity. Those who join a faith and take part for more than lip service or general worship are people that have devoted themselves to the ideals of that deity and if they change deities simply based off the fact they don't feel there is recognition then they were obviously never serious about worship in the first place. If the person's faith is more business oriented and they try and advance in it like in a business, demanding raises, promotions, etc based on work then chances are that -could- work if the faith is right for that type of attitude.

Adventurers however are not a pool of talent that faiths go out of their way to attract and promote and that run off to different Religions when they feel their bonus isn't big enough like so many Wallstreet Execs. Many faiths have specialized talent they use for situations (sponsored militants, assassins, bodyguards, secret societies etc), and other times they simply pay to have something done much like any other organization. You don't need to be a follower of Banjo God of Musicals and Cowboy Justice to get hired by his faith to locate and secure the holy five string mouth-harp.

Adventurers are out there for adventure, fame, and riches. Almost any situation where one of them ends up running a church, government, inn, etc always happens -after- they stop adventuring. Just like adventurers are not city watchmen, they are not supreme generals, and they are not kings and queens. Are there exceptions to the rule? Yes. In battle a king may put himself in danger, but said King would not be a very good one if he got knifed and bled out while trying to shake down a den of kobolds for some copper.

I think what Tyson is trying to communicate is people play this game for their own enjoyment and to see their characters grow etc, that they have egos and want them stroked. That works to a point, but it seems like it is expected that characters only be influenced by what they want to allow as a player and not by the "living" world of Forgotten Realms and the immersion we should all be working towards creating and joining.

To sum it up:

Don't join an organisation where they want you to put it and or its figurehead (deity, king, whatever) before yourself and expect to have your ego stroked. Join a faith that is more self serving like Cyric's.

Faiths may work like a business, but it's run by clerics and not merchants. They don't just look to make coin, they look to make it through some type of divine devotion. Big difference.

Religous worship in Forgotten Realms and attitudes towards it do not work like they do in current real life. Adon didn't convert from Sune to Mystra just because his high priestess didn't like the cut of his jib. He converted after living through his adventures (Go read the Time of Troubles books) and dealing with the outcomes and epiphanies. AFTER he converted and retired he became a head of her faith and devoted his life and time to that.

edited to fix a couple typos.

[Kallias]

I do want PC's to be respected for what they are...I'm mostly against the mindset that an adventurer would revere a religious leader like any other sheep in the flock would. The difference is like a Lakers fan having dinner with Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant having dinner with Phil Jackson.

I do agree with your post. Everything certainly has different variables based on religion, religious leader, and PC.

[Nysan]

Hehe, sheep. Did someone get that out of my post? Sorry. Didn't mean that. Mostly was aiming at respecting the surperior, not blind "yes" men. Heck, look at my characters. One of them is hated by most of his faith, even gets regular death threats, but he maintains a high rank in the faith. Don't need to be a 'yes' man to get a rank, if thats what you are aiming for, but telling the boss to kiss a troll every time you see them might not be the best way to get a new office.

I still don't see the appeal of focusing on rank climbing. FM and inner circle positions are not exactly open audition recruitment and partly OOC. Prelate and below, yeah... certain faiths might have responsibilities for this or that rank, but what stops an acolyte from spreading the good word, organizing a fund raiser, or comissioning a book of hymns to the church? Yeah, a prelate of XXX faith might be tasked with fund raising, cause of the title, but whats the difference between title given task and "wants to do it" acolyte task? Granted I am restricted to my personal experience, but I haven't encountered anything my acolytes couldnt do that my prelates could (well, the death threat thing maybe). *shrug*

[Kallias]

I used "sheep" because of the allegory of a priest being a shepherd for his flock, a common judeo-christian depiction. I didn't mean to use it as a reference similar to "robot".

[Briek]

I still don't see the appeal of focusing on rank climbing

You don't roleplay the faith well because you want to get promoted, you get promoted because you want to roleplay the faith well.

but what stops an acolyte from spreading the good word, organizing a fund raiser, or comissioning a book of hymns to the church?

I agree, don't wait for someone higher up to do it if you think it will be fun and a benefit to the group your character is a part of. You don't need your FM's permission or whatever because frankly if you needed that for every little event nothing would ever be done.

[Larethiel]

You don't roleplay the faith well because you want to get promoted, you get promoted because you want to roleplay the faith well.

I'd assume, to be promoted you should rp the faith well for a stable length of time, show responsibility, understanding of your deity and many other things/etc.etc.. You don't get promoted beforehand and only if you want to rp the faith well. At least, it should not be that way, in my opinion.

You don't need your FM's permission or whatever because frankly if you needed that for every little event nothing would ever be done.

Right, I'd agree that you don't need your FM's permission to do small things, but when you want to run bigger social events or even faith meetings, it'd be decent to at least inform your FM about it, perhaps they'd like to take part That is, if it is an active FM/faith. In a perfect scenario...a faith has many active members within different ranks, providing an exchange that will make people come up with stuff on their own and create a dynamic overall communication within the faith. Don't we all strive for perfection...somewhere

[Bellayana]

To be honest a faith member really shouldn't have to be the one to initiate a big event such as a faith meeting, the FM should already be doing it. Being a FM is a responsibility, if the faith members are the one doing the meetings then something is wrong and the faith needs to be reorganized.

[Mele]

That's really a close minded statement to make. Faith members enjoy to organize things, not just faith managers. Faith managers enjoy faithful doing what they have fun doing, too. To become a faith manager is not to take over a position of doing all things in the faith with no questions no help and no input from faithful. A faith isn't ruled to be run alone by a faith manager, that is why the ranks exist.

[Bellayana]

Yes I agree Mele, but they should know about what is happening and be involved. If they are aware of what is happening because they aren't around then I don't think they are doing their job. Maybe I just didn't clarify myself.

[Nysan]

Faith managers shouldn't HAVE to be involved in every event/situation involving the faith. That is true. On the other hand, most events are announced on the event forum and often time those organizing send forum PMs or in-game messages (letters or note posts) to those that might be interested, including FMs usually. We have a nearly failsafe system for informing people whats going on. *shrug*

Even if a FM somehow missing getting informed, it shouldn't mean much. Most faiths, barring a few of the more RP intense ones, wouldn't take offense to an imprompt commissioned book of hymns or fund raiser, and the RP intense ones are usually occupied with seasoned RPers to begin with that can handle any fallout. RP intense faiths in my eyes are evil or non-human faiths, automatically restricted to seasoned RPers due to character creation kismet costs.

[Dapher]

I think a FM should obviosuly be managing the faith, but there is more to it. A faith manager needs to be a teacher. If the FM does everthing on thier own then who is learning? Why not deligate? If you have a faithful that has been logging regularly and has an obvious joy in ther RP of this church, why not ask them to do something for the church? That is often what I do. For a faithful to become an acolyte they have to log regularly, show initiative, and once I see that, I give them a task, most fighters are told to set up a tourney, most priests are told to write a paper, or a book on the lore of the church, most wizards are more difficult to find tasks for. But what I am saying is make the faithful do things that are relavant to the church, the more they do for the church the more they learn from it and the more they invest in it. It gives them a sense of usefulness, a bit of pride for contributing to what they are apart of.

And yes, I love to set up meetings, I love getting the faithful together, eating, drinking, teaching, and listening to ideas, and stories. The churches should be in my mind more than friends, it is somewhat of an extended family, everyone in that church is connected in one way, all have somethin in common, and when they each add to it, each do something to improve it they tend to be more active. Sure, not all churches are like that, I would never expect Shar, or Mask to be like that. But you all understand what I am saying. The FM shows the initial initiative, gets the ball rolling, and then slowly brings the other faithful into the mix, gives the other faithful things to do. If you do that, it ends up being a very active faith, and quite a bit of fun.

What is boils down to is the more active I get my faith members the happier I am to advance them. Like I said at the start, they have to show me they are willing to put in the time, and devotion, they are willing to learn about the church, and the ethos first. After that then if they are willing to add to the church, and make things happen, then they are worthy of promoting.