Discussion: PC description length and width

[Brar]

Here goes the old grumbling guy again

Fact: helpfile on description says: should be between 4 to 15 lines after justification.

Fact: Some people don't give a shit about the above anymore and have 30 more lines description, or no justification

Fact: Some people are new and have not really understand the first fact of this list

Fact: Some peoples have big screens with 50+ lines at once

Fact: Some of us have small screen with 30- lines at once

Fact: Some have 16:9 screens with 100+ char width

Fact: Some have old 5:4 screens with fixed 80 char width


After those facts, my questions are:
- What to do when you encounter someone with an utterly wrong description that is actually annoying because the time you read it there was ten emotes and peoples even left the room thinking you are plainly ignoring them?

- What to do when you encounter someone with a description that just don't show up on your screen (be it in width or lenght)?

It is two situations I stumble upon a few times recently and honestly did not know what to do, so in doubt I did nothing but I don't feel it is the good way to go either and for me it is very frustrating to rp with someone I did not read the description.

Should I have tried to Osay it out? Should I have filled a complaint?

In all honesty, I have no good answer for this and would like to have your views about that and why not an official guideline

Please, no flame-wars, no targeting, no feeling targeted. All those things will not make the discussion interesting and will not makes anything better.

Thanks for your time,
Brar

[Hrosskell]

I think a certain amount of freedom should be given to players concerning their description. While it may be difficult to read, or simple, I think the description process is just as personal for the player as it is necessary for others. Understanding this, I agree that "a certain amount of freedom" should have some limits--but that may relate directly to my own personal preferences in writing. Being able to be concise and still getting a point across is as much a talent as wordiness and grandiloquence.

Raising the question in general is important, as those who are aware that is an issue will change their behavior accordingly; either those players with long descriptions will consider the implications of someone looking at them more seriously, or shorten their descriptions--whichever they see most appropriate.

I do not think forcing limits on peoples' creativity is an encouraging action.

[Briek]

honestly sometimes I just hit enter put in a "one moment" then read it

some people get very creative with descriptions which is nice to see, as you have pointed out due to several factors it's hardly ever uniform for any one person.

Maybe it might be good just to tell the player the affect it has when someone looks at them, I know whenever someone has pointed out something like that to me I have hastily corrected it.

[Brar]

I think a certain amount of freedom should be given to players concerning their description.

I completely agree with that, however I was always told that your freedom ends where your neighbors' freedom begins.

One actual situation that happened to me twice (with different character), meeting a character with a description I had to "continue" 4 times before seeing the end of it (with a pager of 20 which is what the screen of my netbook can display).
I would have like to tell them that perhaps they should try to shorten it a bit, thinking of the pain it can be for people, but I had no insight on how to do it properly, was it my place to osay them? should I have fill a complaint and let the imms acts? should I just plainly ignore it and sucks it up because the wrong one is me (this is a possibility I still consider)?

If I am wrong, then I think we should plainly remove the mention of suggested length in the helpfiles and in the explanation of description on the character creation process, I have no problem with that as long as I know how to react to the same situation in the future

Thanks for your time,
Brar

[Briek]

I think if someone has made the description that long, then should they refer to it in roleplay you can point out that you really didn't have time to read it, that it's gone well over the recommended length

[Hrosskell]

I would have like to tell them that perhaps they should try to shorten it a bit, thinking of the pain it can be for people, but I had no insight on how to do it properly, was it my place to osay them? should I have fill a complaint and let the imms acts? should I just plainly ignore it and sucks it up because the wrong one is me (this is a possibility I still consider)?

If I came across something in game that distracted me from RP and I thought it was an important issue, which you seem to according to your previous posts, I would file a complaint and let the staff make a decision.

[Mele]

Something I'm not really understanding here; is it very hard on a client with less lines to simply hit enter the three times then scroll back while roleplay to emote and read?

If someone is using a client that cannot scroll back, why not install Zmud that we keep available on this site? (Personally it's what I use and I hit "Page 50" on every alt and it's rare I have to hit enter for anything. So I don't fully understand the big deal)

Why is it more offensive when someone takes the time to describe themselves in extra detail, but not when someone has a description like so:

she has green eyes
hair is brown
she's tall and thin
she smells nice

The lack of a shift key and punctuation is the only thing that actually personally bothers me. I can handle any length or lack thereof, just not laziness to hit shift or punctuation.

Is it really that important to sit and read every detail of a description on every first encounter? Why not just skim the description for the details you'd notice quickly, then go back later and read it if you become closer to the character?

And last: If someone has a description you literally have to sit with a thesaurus to read then just don't bother. It's not a hindrance to your character, you're not forced to recognize the fluffly cloud blue color of their rectangle shaped orbs set in their head surrounded by light feathering black lenghty lashes. "Your eyes are brown, no?"

I honestly don't feel like a description is a complaint-worthy issue unless it has something offensive in it. Nor do I think the fifteen line limit is rightly enforceable, given we have added exotic races since that time. Those require sometimes much more detail. It seems like anyone as a player has better things to do than worry over someone else's description. I think I've said this probably a million times in my posts: Worry about your characters and your doings and your experience will be much more fun.

[Brar]

Something I'm not really understanding here; is it very hard on a client with less lines to simply hit enter the three times then scroll back while roleplay to emote and read?

If someone is using a client that cannot scroll back, why not install Zmud that we keep available on this site? (Personally it's what I use and I hit "Page 50" on every alt and it's rare I have to hit enter for anything. So I don't fully understand the big deal)

Depending on your hardware it is easily that you can't actually install Zmud or any program for that matter (work computer being one example, cybercafe being another)

Why is it more offensive when someone takes the time to describe themselves in extra detail, but not when someone has a description like so:

she has green eyes
hair is brown
she's tall and thin
she smells nice

No one says it is more offensive, no one ever says it is offensive actually. And in my eyes, both are wrong according to the rules in place (those rules being what is explained in help files and during character creation, I am not the one who set them up as far as I know).

And last: Is it really that important to sit and read every detail of a description on every first encounter? Why not just skim the description for the details you'd notice quickly, then go back later and read it if you become closer to the character?

Well, that is a matter of point of view so hardly debatable. Like any what is important and what is not question.

I honestly don't feel like a description is a complaint-worthy issue unless it has something offensive in it.

Nor do I.

Nor do I think the fifteen line limit is rightly enforceable, given we have added exotic races since that time. Those require sometimes much more detail.

I have no problem with that, then should we ask for a change in the help file and character creation process?

It seems like anyone as a player has better things to do than worry over someone else's description. I think I've said this probably a million times in my posts: Worry about your characters and your doings and your experience will be much more fun.

That I don't agree at all, for me description is a really important part of the gameplay and the interaction, and is even more important at the first meeting because you often react to appearance before anything else in front of a stranger. And yes, not being able to read a description at all because it is either too large or too long is irritating for me.
Yet it is my personnal feeling and I don't ask for anyone to share it or even to agree with it.

On a last note, I would like to react to one last thing I heard a few times following some of my posts.

So I don't fully understand the big deal

There is no "Big Deal", only a situation and a discussion about it.
I only wanted to have insight on how different people would react on the same thing so I can better adapt my own experience to it.
Most do it by other mean of communication than the forum, I have none and wants none so I use what I have at my disposal, and what is offered to me by the game administrators (or do I make a false assumption here? Please, tell me so if I do).
Is it bad to do it on the forums? Is it only for "Big Deals"?
I'm still wondering about that one since I came back and am still in the trials/errors process and not sure to the answer of this one.
I know you had lots of problems in the past with players using the forum as their personnal battlefield and complaints room but I can assure you (you as in everyone, not you Mele personally) that it is not my case, I can understand it would take time to prove it but now if my posts are making anyone feels bad, I would prefer those person to tell it directly to me (pm works great for that). I can well live without posting here (I did it for almost ten years, should survive a few more years )

Brar, trying to show how he could be friendly guy (just not for too long )

[Nysan]

I bounce between computers for FK. Some days, I am on my PC, which runs Zmud. Others, I am on my Macbook, which runs Fang. They have varying limitations about character and line limits.

Most of the time, I read descriptions. I know I put alot of time in my characters' descriptions, updating them now and then, and I assume others put just as much effort into theirs, so I try to read them. Granted, there are times I am busy or the description is a bit long for the moment, so I log it to notepad or word and read them later on.

Honestly, I do not follow the helpfile's line limit rule. At the same time, I do not turn my characters' descriptions into a graphic novel either. Are they a bit lengthy? Sure, but I don't feel they are over the top, merely the result of their experiences over the years.

If you don't want to read a description, don't. I can count on two hands the number of times someone has commented, in-game, on one of my characters' description... and two of those times were imms chatting with me back when Gilain was young. Descriptions add to RP, but there is no set in stone rule that forces you to read every description you see and react to it.

More to Brar's point, or what I think his point is... Perhaps we should just cut out the line limit rule from the helpfile, or at least alter it to be worded as a suggestion rather than a set rule. My two cents, of course.

[Mele]

Please, no flame-wars, no targeting, no feeling targeted

Some things are rhetorical and not aimed at anyone, sorry if it came off otherwise. :) Also, it's really hard not to feel targeted when your post is the only one picked apart piece by piece. ;)

[Raona]

I'm not going to mince words here - I get to be blunt for a change, it's Father's day! (Heh, yeah, that'll work...)

1) I'm partial to short descriptions myself. I also am a stickler for rules. So I see this as you do, Brar. But the way you kicked off this topic screamed to me your position and implied to me that you want something done about it. It did not come across as opening up a discussion, it did sound accusatory toward anyone with a longer description. Why not just say "I have to play on a small screen and have recently run into some very long descriptions which I really don't like. What should I do? Am I within my rights to OTELL the author this? Is it likely to do nothing other than hurt their feelings?" Or maybe even just a post explaining what is hard about long descriptions for you - something you have laid out well, but with a lot of loaded language piled on top of it. Most players, if they understand how it is problematic for you, will adjust their own habits. The description guidelines were put in place for good reason, but many have forgotten what they are, or (mistakenly) think them inconsequential in the modern era of 21" monitors.

2) The time and energy of the upper echelons of this game's management is limited. Complaints go to the very top. Do we really want them spending their time dealing with a complaint about something like description lengths? I humbly ask everyone to solve as many problems as they can at the most local level possible - in this case, by discussion between players, be it on the forums or in-game. If you really can't resolve it yourself (and alas, that is inevitably the case with many things related to code) and it is important, by all means use the complaints or applications processes. But don't make them your first recourse in all matters, especially those you may be able to solve yourself! (This is intended as an answer to Brar's question about the appropriateness of filing a complaint about description lengths - I'm saying I really don't think it is the way to go, not because you have nothing to complain about, but rather because you should not have to turn to the Imms for something like this...and frankly, if that was the only fix that would work, I'd choose instead to live with it.)

3) As a helpfile editor, I'm sure I'm guilty of writing overly long helpfiles, too. I can tell you the top brass is on the side of those with small screens, as I get chided for helpfiles that are more than 20-some lines. But the way around it is less detailed information, or (with helpfiles I at least have this option) links to additional helpfiles. Problem is, the latter take a lot more time and editing. People often want more detailed information, and they don't want to have to wade through a menu system to get it. But based on my experience with helpfiles I would encourage folks with long descriptions to ask themselves these questions:
a) Can you prioritize the content, as in a newspaper article? Your adjective on the first line, a brief description on the next few, and then a detailed description, if you must include such? I've seen this done beautifully, with "Upon closer inspection, you notice..." and segues of that sort. This isn't as helpful to Brar and others as a truly concise description, but it is helpful nonetheless. I get hot under the collar when someone asks "Didn't you read my description? It's right there on line 67, after the dragon tattoo and before the purple eyebrows - I'm missing my left ear!"...usually after they chide me for taking more than 10 seconds to reply to their question about their earrings (I was trying to read their description), upon meeting them the first time.
b) Is everything you are saying in your description really visible? I cough a bit at the "[When he is naked, you can see] a roaring tiger tatoo under his navel" family of description content. I'd rather know your feet smell, really. That I'm ICly more likely to realistically find out.
c) Were you to bump into yourself in a dark alley, would you really read your entire description? Would you be happy you did? We all love our own words with a certain lack of reason (myself included), so perhaps you should ask someone else, who you can trust to be forthright, about whether you are overdoing it.

That's it, all the bluntness I can manage in one go! I'm not keen on the idea of the Imms laying down the law with respect to description format, even though I'd love to see them all shorter, if not less grandiloquent. (Heck, FK boosts my vocabulary! I'd never have known that bootyliscious and pulchritudinous mean roughly the same thing, were it not for this game and this forum.) They need to be "good," by some modicum of popular view, but they need not fit a boilerplate.

[Kallias]

If someone's description bothers me, I just don't read it. Path of least resistance.

[Lysha]

I will admit I have my share of lengthy descriptions for my characters, and I have seen other very lengthy ones. I do know what you mean about not being able to reply to someone very quickly because of reading someone's description, and what I do if someone's description is a little long is I either have the screen do half-and-half, something I really like that zMUD does, where I can have their description above where I've scrolled up, and then the lower part is showing "live feed" so to speak. If this doesn't work, and I know not everyone can do this either, is I will copy someone's description and put it in notepad to read as we talk.

I have had to ask people OOCly what their hair colour/eye colour/height are because of things being lost in a description or I am just having a hur dur dur moment, and I don't mind answering these questions myself.

So, in my opinion, when in doubt, I think it is best to ask someone OOCly for clarification if you don't understand, or even ask them to wait (politely) as you read their description. That's my two cents!

[Peverell]

If someone's description bothers me, I just don't read it. Path of least resistance.

Similar feeling here...

In the early days, I used to keep a text file open on my desktop and I'd copy over descriptions so I could read them at my own speed while the conversation was flowing. Nowadays I'm more likely to skim-read over someone's desc if I find it overly long, and even 15 lines can be a lot if it's a blank wall of text with no line breaks or colours to break it up, especially on my laptop screen, so I know where Brar's coming from there.

Personally, it's the descs that are unjustified, teal-coloured, mis-spelled and a single run-on sentence that bother me the most.

But when it comes down to it, there'll always be people who do things that rub you up the wrong way in FK, whether it be their writing style or the way they roleplay, or how they deal with OOC information. I don't think the 15-line limit is really enforceable unless we have regular checks by the Desc Police and... do we really want that?

[Brar]

Quick reply because I'm at work and don't have much time.

Thanks you all for I had all the answers I could dream of.
I'm sorry if I makes anyone offended, feeling bad, angry, furious, cursing, "hot under the collar" (thanks Raona, I did not know this one) or anything else in the same range, I promise it was not intended and I still loves you all.

A last fact before you all put me on a cross and put me on fire: fact is: You should all speak french so it is easier (well for me at least but I am a selfish little man ) to get a point across without unecessary bad feeling and fuss. (After all, Moliere is damn more fun than Shakespeare, same goes for soccer teams )

Brar trying so much to turn his words to not makes anyone feels bad that he fails miserably and will ask for more in a few days... (I begin to feel I am somewhat masochist... )

[Eltsac]

Just my point...

Personnaly, I sometimes don't read descriptions when they are far too long (or far too many new descs in a same room) and I have a hard time trying to follow the rp going on at the same time (english is not my mother tongue, and thus I'm not reading it as fast as French :p).
I try to grab a few words and I read them if rp let me time to it.

I don't think it would be useful to use compaints and enforcement and such for descriptions.

I don't care to let people make long desc if they wish to. They simply have to know some people might have a hard time reading it and thus rp accordingly knowing the one in front of them hasn't noticed all the details of their character's anatomy.

My idea, that might help a bit, is to encourage people (maybe with a note in the help file ?) to do the following thing :
If someone wants to make a long desc, it would help me (others?) if they could make a first paragraph (a couple lines can be enough) like "at the first sight you see ... " with a general description of the character, the main things that are easily seen when looking at the character. Then all the details come further.
So we could start rp knowing mainly how the character looks like and we can go on with the desc reading during the rp.

Just an idea.

El & co

[Raona]

Desole, Brar! Je sais que ce peut etre tres difficile. Mon Francais c'est debole, tout les persons Francophone dites-moi ceci.

(You can't even use accents with the forums! Horrible!)

[Selveem]

I get what Brar's saying. Honestly, Selveem's description is a bit lengthy but I don't know how it'd look on other people's monitors. I tried to format it 77 characters wide (including spaces, of course) and it is 18 lines in length. Thus, based on the helpfile I have broken the rules by 3 lines. Not so big, but I'm a stickler for rules as well despite this admission of breaching the rules.

That being said, originally I was within said limit, however as my character has gotten older he has gained new traits (scars and the like) that I have described.

I think the discussion is a fair one: change the helpfile (along with the rule) or enforce it. It is fair, is it not?

With that said, I would like to bring up something that was brought up elsewhere: enable additional descriptions for characters. Or, alternatively, a new command (or re-purpose "examine") for a longer descriptions or allow glance to show only a quick rundown of a character's traits: height, natural weight, eye color, hair color, hair length, blah blah blah.

Quick question Brar: is 77 characters too wide?

Personally speaking, I find that color is used too much in many descriptions. So much so that it detracts my attention due to annoyance.