Updating Brew

[Nysan]

This topic may get me burned at the stake, but all the talk of updating systems and changes has inspired me.

I believe it is time Brew is updated and the level restriction lifted, allowing all levels of spells to be brewed, like scribe. Wait, keep reading... I am not saying all spells should be brewed, just all levels.

We already have a system in place that flags certain spells in the 1-3 level range so they cannot be brewed. Let us open up all levels and use that system to block off the undesirables.

I am talking cure critical potions, vials of restoration, flasks of regenerate, jars of energy immunity, ect. Definately not the more troublesome spells. Thoughts?

[Selveem]

As I am a player of WAAAAY more fighters than any other class.. perhaps all other classes combined.. That would be extremely beneficial to those characters, however, the rationalist and fair-portion of my brain says "naaah."

Since this MUD has focused so greatly on grouping (to my annoyance, in some cases), if we are going to continue that trend, the focus needs to be less on scribe, brew, and staves crafting.

It's nice to have such potions, but at the same time it's important that potions do not offer even replacement for a class.

While I realize that's probably not what you were intending, the harsh reality is if there is substitute available, more likely than not they can be used.

[Brar]

I'm all up for it, but with limititation to "apprentice" level of the spell and that the potion making use up the component for the spells (not sure it is already the case)

Actually, it would never replace a caster for you have only limited potions but it would help party play. You always have to take a potion from time to time in tabletop, even when you have healers and buffers

[Nysan]

Selveem: Maybe my experience is limited but umm... what replacing? We have had our current potion selection for many years now and I cannot think of a single instance where someone was packing around enough cure serious potions to replace an actual priest. This is especially true in-combat, where potions can be fail or be destroyed on a bad Dex roll.... something Gilain gets alot. I can't see a huge leap in potion-packing-players (say that 5 times fast) by adding a few new spells to the list.

Brar: Brew functions just like regular casting. Basically, you are casting the spell 3 times to brew it (thats if you do not fail). It eats up components like normal. And if the flags are in place to keep the troublesome spells out of brew, skillevel shouldn't be much of a problem.

[Selveem]

Yes, however, I would like to make a few points:

• 1: "Back in the old days" when Brew was put into the game it was not widely available for distribute (only the few who ran out and did the quest actually got the skill).
  
  2: Even when brew was first introduced into the game, there weren't as many spells available in the game.
  
  3: Those who had brew rarely made potions for many people during that time.
  
  4: Spells such as Stoneskin/Stone Body, Offensive Shields, True Sight, Energy Immunity, Mind Blank, Regenerate, Heal/Cure Critical, Blade Barrier, Find the Path, Spell Resistance, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Restoration, Death Ward, or any other future spell were not previously able to be brewed by a PC.

And I agree, Brar, but in Table Top (if you had DMs like I had!) PC lives on average are shorter. I would have LOVED to have had a character that survived for 7K hours of Table Top D&D!

[Nysan]

#1 Hated that old witch...

Not sure what #2 and #3 have to do with the here and now. I was talking about now when I mentioned the potion-packing-players. Potions are easy to get, if you spend a little time finding a brewer. Anyone could pack away 20 or 30 potions of their choosing, for a price, right now. Most don't and even if they did... the annoying Dex check (good system, just bad memories) in-combat keeps alot in check.

#4 Of course they werent brewed then. Thats why the topic is updating it. But again, I would strongly recommend flagging certain spells as non-brewable for balance concerns. It just saves headaches later on.

[Brar]

#1 it was even worse than that, when it was introduce, it was imm given only and not a matter of quests, for several months (years?) only 2 PC had it.

#4 Brew was not restricted to level at first, as according to 2nd ed, it was only when we began the 3rd ed switching that it changed. and it was not matter of spelllevels for we did not have spell levels at that times, spelllevels appeared with the memorization system which was after my departure.
I know my rangers had a good stack of heal potions.

I still think opening potion to a few protective spells would only add to surviability but I would not like to see them going around for free, they should cost a good fait of money. And I would have certains spells using more than one slot in the potion. For example, no stoneskin, dragonskin, bladebarrier potion.
Also, a good restriction would be to have as brewable, only non personnal spells. It will already rule out the most potent protection spells.

Brar

[Nysan]

#1 and #4, ahh the memories of FK as it was just getting its legs. What fun, chaotic, stressful times those were.

Money concerns are an IC concern. I do not think the prices set in-game between PCs should be controlled by some code. Worthy of discussion? Yes, of course, but I would hate to see potions get some sort of house-rule trade restriction like Mithril Halls and Mithril. And from personal experience, certain PCs that teach brew already insist students maintain a set minimum costs for potions. I only know two characters were not taught under that system.

Working off personal experience... eh. Why not allow similiar spells to be mixed? How is that any different than having your mage/priest/druid friend buffing you before you leave the city? My druid brews dragonskin/barkskin potions fairly often and I don't see a problem in it. If/when my mage gets brew, he will brew dragonskin/armor/mirror image potions. All of these are already brewable and acceptable combinations in the current system (guessing on the mage spells). Unless there is a log showing a problem, I don't understand why we should cut it back if we update Brew.

That said, again I mention the system that flags certain spells 'un-brewable'. Your blade barrier example screams no-potion to me. For some reason, I just cannot picture blades popping out of your mouth or body after quaffing, hehe.

[Atraos]

If i may throw a few pennies worth in? I have one wizzie char who has yet to learn the likes of Brew so my experience on the actual skill is limited.
However speaking from the warrior perspective and from one who plays during the UK daytime, the more potions available the better.
I struggle to find players to "Group" with, especially when playing my drow, wouldnt it be nice to be able buy a few relevant potions to enable me to move away from the low level areas and attempt the mid level on my own.
Obviously the potion types would be restricted, regen, heals, protections etc.
Blade barrier as a potion?? I dont think so, as stated above.

Sometimes RP might not suit grouping, sometimes people do prefer to play alone, others may have little choice because of time played etc so a few potions in the aresenal do open up other avenues. Remember these potions don't tend to be cheap in shops so there is no reasons for a PC making them to sell them on the cheap. And from experience again, solo adventuring doesnt yield much coin so its not like i could pop to my local apocothary and purchase 30+ potions.

Just my thoughts

[Alvirin]

I would throw in a "expert potion brewer feat" or somesuch, that would increase the list of spells that can be brewed (but still not all of them) and that would reduce the components wasted in a single potion

[Brar]

What I was trying to say is that more potent spells (like stoneskin) should take more "space" in the bottle, that would refrain from doing some hype combinations I can think of and refreshing them in combat. I see no problem with spells lvl 3-, it's for the others.

And yeah no bladebarrier, as I said if spell were to be added, I would only select targeted spells and not personal ones.

On the RP might not be suitable for grouping and the "sometimes you want to play alone", I agree on that, but then you don't go to uber high level area when you want to play alone, that's as simple as that. You can very well do xp and other things while alone, earned a complete level 44 to 45 level alone a few weeks ago but it requires much more thinking than plain area raizing.
And I'm not speaking about drow here, drow have there own problems being isolated.

Brar

[Alvirin]

Well...

Brew Potion [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 3rd.

Benefit
You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures.

Scribe Scroll [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 1st.

Benefit
You can create a scroll of any spell that you know.

I think that there is a benefit to play a class that can read scrolls, and that is the use of better "consumables", and in fact there are higher-level spells that can be recited and scribed already in FK. It could be argued that X class can't read scrolls but that is one of the intrincacies of choosing one class or another.

[Nysan]

As a player of established characters that have no more feat points to spend... no feats please? Maybe a feat that increases the spell's effectiveness or something, but please nothing that would leave spell out of a character's potential brewing list.

Edit: Brar, if you are saying something like "anything above lvl 4 cannot be multi-spell potions" or similar restriction, yeah sure. I don't see a problem with stoneskin being the only thing in the bottle. It still keeps new spells in brew, so works for me.

[Brar]

I would even add to Alvirin that both potion and scroll are suppose to hold only one spell actually.

I'm a big follower of the rule, but there are some that just need to be bended for playability sake.
Without a real tactical combat, it is hard to have things exactly the same all the time, for there is a complete part of combat that are being ignored and for me it is even the most important one, placement and movement.
A fact is that you are getting "attacked" (and by consequence hit) far more times in the mud than in tabletop combat. To balance that, offering more protection is one of many solution that could work.
I don't think offering more healing is the way to go, but more protection so the "number of actual hit" stays roughly the same by getting the "hit ratio" down.

A crushing numbers example:
It is purely imaginary numbers of course.

Tabletop:
1 fight = 100 attacks, 25% success ratio -> 1 fight = 25 hit
1 hit = 10 damage, so 1 fight = 25x10 = 250 damage

Mud:
we keep the same numbers on everything so same ratio.
1 fight = 400 attacks, -> 1 fight = 400 x 25% = 100 hit -> 1 fight = 100x10 = 1000 damage.

So to stay on par regarding surviability, you have to either raise heal so you heal 1000 damage when you have to heal 250 on tabletop (yuk yuk yuk method)
Or you can lower the hit ratio by adding buffing spells, if you drop it to 6.25% then you have 1 fight = 400 x 6.25% = 25 hit

The difference between the number of actual attack you have on the mud and in real tabletop it because of the movements of characters, in tabletop you don't stand idly while getting hit.
Or another thing I though of is a tumble skill that would negate multiple attacks, gradually of course. (like an opposed skill to second, third, fourth, fifth attacks).

But we digress from the original post here...

Brar

Edit to add a thought after rereading: Where is Dalvyn when you need his mathematical knowledge?

[Nysan]

I have no experience using scrolls in combat, but Gilain has an extensive history with potions. Honestly, if we added every possible healing spell to brew it wouldn't have a large impact solely due to the combat DEX check built into the quaff command (check the helpfile). Even with his decent DEX, Gilain fumbles and destroyed many, many potions during combat. Its a nice balancing effect that keeps in-combat potion spamming off the table.

[Brar]

If I remember correctly, on tabletop it is a dex vs "damage taken this round" check, that would for me translate as a 100% chance to quaff in back rank, 75% in middle rank, very bad chance in front rank.
Or something along that line...

[Nysan]

That brings up a good question. Does our quaff system calculate in formation rank? Gilain has always been in the front, so I wouldn't know. I always just assumed it was a universal Dex check.

[Aveline]

As someone who brews a lot of potions and uses a lot of potions in game.. I'd be for this. Gesine has sold a lot of potions and I rarely see people buying them so they can go out and solo places. Most people stockpile them so if they get into a bind, they have them or if they get into a situation where they are alone then they have them. I think flagging certain spells as not brewable, and the dex checks that gilain mentioned would keep everything even. As far as wizarding goes it isn't going to add a terrible number of spells to the mix. Anything offensive won't be able to be brewed... you can't be brew up a flask of phantasmal killer or polar rays. Anything that needs to specify something other than a target won't be able to be brewed. Nothing that involves scrying or changing something. No magic mirrors, arcane eyes, or polymorphs, or any teleporting type spells. There are of course a few spells that this would bring into the mix, but really not that many. And I think the ones that would be added to the possible things that can be brewed are very easily balanced. If flagging certain spells, and the dexterity checks are not enough, then perhaps making a caster's level in brew tell them what level of spells they can brew as well. And.. perhaps higher level spells would be more difficult to quaff just as they would be more difficult to recite off of a scroll. We could attribute that to higher level spells having more energy or something. So now it can already be fairly difficult to quaff a potion during a fight, but if you are attempting to quaff a potion of fireshield in the middle of the fight, you'd be much more likely to fail than if you were just taking a potion of mirror image.

[Zorinar]

I like where it is now for the following reason.
If we up the spell level of brewable's we are allowing for non casters to stock up on powerful spells and upset the balance of their class. Basically, mirroring what selveem said.

I
Now, I have heard lots of mention about "powerful" spells like stoneskin / dragonskin and that they should be restricted if the spell level is raised. These spells may not be as powerful as you think they are. Zorinar's stoneskin is eaten up and gone during one fight usually. (And confirmed by the annoying complaints of his fighter companions on the issue). Also the idea of keeping spells at apprentice level in the bottle is not reasonable. Dont forget that FK spells are not in line with D&D power levels until they are at GM. So if you want to keep spells at apprentice, your stonskin will last.... two rounds of hits? Your resist element spells will last.... 1 minute maybe? That might be fine for table top but the mud is different and things take a lot longer on the mud. There is nothing wrong with stoneskin in a bottle, nothing wrong with dragonskin in a bottle and nothing wrong with them at GM. But, if a fighter had 20 of them then I wouldn't like that. I'm sure the fighters wouldn't like it if zorinar could cast spells AND take a potion that gave him fighter stats with 5 attacks per round:)

However, we could add a limit to how many potions can be quaffed within a certain time period. That would solve a lot of issues in one swoop. You can choose if you want to save those 4 healing potions you have or take a few magical buff potions instead for an hour or so. Even if the fighter had 20 stoneskins, they wont be able to use them back to back. We could consider that stronger spells take up more room in your belly. Just an idea.
Z

[Brar]

You forget one thing in your calculation, from experience, on the 20 stoneskin potion the fighter may have, only half if not less would actually be quaffed in combat because of the check.
And still, you can quaff only one per round (or should be able too).

I don't see why someone can't have the right to stock on potions, if he have the money for it then why not, it is his choice, and will make am potion brewer happy and rich

And on the point that fighter would not like wizards to be able to do 5 attacks per round, you can already do much more damage being a mage than the 5 attacks of a fighter... I can feel the difference when I fight alone and when I fight with my buddy wizard and his maximize, empowered, enlarge shocking grasps/burning hands/magic missile/ect 1st level spells (or something along that line, not sure about the combination)... I do nowhere near his damage to the mobs and I have weapons more powerful than most, being ancient weapons not available anymore.
I don't even speak of when he begin to spam fireball or lightning blot...

And for me, stoneskin is still a very powerful spell being able to stand one whole fight without taking damage is huge, even a few rounds can make all the difference.

But again, I think we should keep it to target beneficial spell, which means no fire/acid/ice/blade shields, no mirror image and all the self protection wizards and clerics have.
Only the spells that you can have casted on you, which means nothing than a delayed cast in my eyes.

Brar