Updating Brew

[Athon]

I don't understand why it is so atrociously bad for fighters to purchase and maintain a supply of potions. As it stands, the casting classes have a much easier job of "soloing" places than warriors typically do. But even then, just because a class can solo a specific area doesn't mean something is "broken." Obviously, this is an RP-oriented mud and grouping is encouraged, but it's definitely not the end-all. Besides, I don't think many players are going to be trying to solo the truly difficult dungeons in the game.

With that little argument aside, we're back to non-caster classes stocking potions. Isn't there RP involved between buyer and seller? I have a highly skilled armoursmith, someone capable of brewing/scribing (he used to sell back in the day), and Moranall is a merchant. I absolutely love the concept of buying and selling in this game; why should this be restricted because some fighter "might solo" an area?

I would love to see brew expanded, personally, and I don't even really use potions as a player. I know the 3.5 rules state that only 3rd level and lower spells can be brewed, but I think this is an exception we can make to make the trading aspect and overall aspect of potions more fun.


Random aside: If brew isn't expanded, what about bringing in oils into the game? I think it would be fun to see weapon enchants and/or weaker offensive spells applied to weapons for a fun effect.

[Eltsac]

My thinking about brew

I'm alright with extanding brew to higher level spells, if potions won't make it as a replacement for other class / for grouping.

I have some limitations :
- no personnal spells (what point to have only a spell for yourself if you can brew a potion and give it away?)
- Only spells that take as _only_ argument a friendly target
(I think those two limitations won't let that many spells left)

- I don't like the idea of having several spells in a potion (whatever the spells level). It takes 1 round to quaff a potion. I don't like the idea to get 3 spells on yourself in one round.

We can make a test anyway, see how it turns out. If we find out people hoarding potions for over soloing areas, then we can still add some more use limitations.

El.

[Nysan]

Just to clear something up. Brew already accepts spells like dragonskin and barkskin (I believe mirror image as well, but not sure). I have made and sold several dragonskin/barkskin/(random third spell) potions on my druid and many other combinations on Nysan and 1-3 cleric spells, such as bless/protection/shield of faith.

I see no imbalancing impact these potions have on the game over the years. So I really don't understand why some are hung up on them. Yes, I agree certain protection spells, such as blade barrier, do not fit into the brew mindset, but I don't understand why some believe we need to cut out current brewable protection spells, and similar spells of higher levels. Is there some logs or something to show something to be concerned about or is it just theory? I like game balance, so if there is something to this, please share.

I am on the fence about shield spells, ice/fire/acid. I could see arguments both ways for how they would fit and how they wouldn't. The only one I have real experience with is iceshield on my mage and I don't see it as a huge impact on his combat. Useful, definately but nothing I cannot skip before a fight and regret not having it. I'll have to play around with it more, I guess.

To those that are concerned, in general. Consider that anything you drink before a fight is just like getting buffed in-town by a friend before adventuring. Anything drunk in-combat, please try to drink in-combat. I could share Gilain's low success rate for in-combat quaffing, though it would be more effective to see it yourself. It will dismiss many of your concerns.

[Keltorn]

To those that are concerned, in general. Consider that anything you drink before a fight is just like getting buffed in-town by a friend before adventuring. Anything drunk in-combat, please try to drink in-combat. I could share Gilain's low success rate for in-combat quaffing, though it would be more effective to see it yourself. It will dismiss many of your concerns.

I've been under the impression that it's not even possible to quaff a potion while in combat. Literally every single time I've tried, it gets knocked out of my hand and I lose that very expensive potion with nothing to show for it. I assume you've gotten similar results.

Maybe the consequence of using a potion while in combat could be reduced to just an attack of opportunity on the quaffer? I didn't even have a potion to try drinking from for at least the first three years of me playing this game. Imagine my distress when that very first one got smashed on the ground right when I needed it most.

[Nysan]

Check the quaff helpfile, its Dex related check. Granted, even a high Dex fails regularly. Definately works to keep in-combat potion-spam down. Might be a bit harsh though.

[Zorinar]

Brar,
Keeping spells to ones that can be cast on another in brew poses difficulties. This mud does not have the player base to assume that you will have balanced groups. Most people I know end up solo-ing or only bringing one other along. Spells like comprehend languages are great for potions, so are detect hidden or detect invis spells. I find that these potions are more in demand than any other potion and I cannot see anything unfair or unbalanced about that. Yet, they are personal ranged spells.

Also, as far as wizards being able to pull off a lot more damage than fighters??? The untrained and ill equiped fighter perhaps, yes. Have you ever sparred Falgorn? He does 50-60%% of zorinar's HP each ROUND. (10-12% each hit) Zorinar does not even do a fraction of that to him with his best spells and he can cast one per round and damage disrupts concentration severely here, even when concentration is at GM. Then of course there is someone like Selveem which I wont even mention how much more damage he can do. And these were just two examples of fighters, I can go on but I think my point was made.

Dont forget that players here have more HP than standard D&D yet spells do about D&D damage. It takes me around 12-17 empowered GM lightning bolts to take down a fighter to stunned. Paper D&D is much different that this mud so we must consider all these variables when discussing changes. Give a fighter a constant supply of stone skin potions, along with their high AC, high HP, high Damage potential and they would be simply machines of death. Kind of like grinded out priests are.


The above reasons are why I like the limited quaff amount per time limit idea. After all, how much magic can you drink before you get weirded out and start seeing flying pink pigs everywhere you look? I wonder if that leads to another idea entirely, random/adverse affects from too many potions?

[Brar]

Well, I'll be as honest as I can be here, I don't give a slightest consideration to PvP when doing any calculation or speaking about game balance.
Main reason is that DnD is not about PvP at all, hence no class balance or anything at all like in modern mmo (that aspect of playing appeared in DaOC and later was enhanced by the rp killer called World of Warcraft).
There is no class balance in term of combat in DnD rules, hence could be none in FK as we try to follow the rules.
You say that the fighter do 50/60% of damage to you per round, i would answer time stop/dominate monster/disintegrate/weird/ect ect

It is supposed to be a cooperative game and not a competitive one, some competition could be fun from time to time, but I personally don't think it should be taken into account when trying to "balance" the game.
Same goes for solo play in high level areas, I think people should seek to group more instead of going solo when there is 5 or 6 people online at the same time, sometimes you can want to solo, but I am under the impression that grouping for Melrose place RP is good but grouping for adventuring is disregarded most of the time.
It is nothing concrete, just a feeling after 3 months of playing.

But it's my personnal opinion, and no guidelines

Brar

[Nysan]

Likewise, I rarely consider PvP impact on any game change I suggest... it just doesn't calculate into the normal, daily life of FK. The few I have been a part of were drawn out quite clearly and were more RP than character-balance concerns.

Still, I have no problems with a delayed effected attached to the quaff command. If memory serves, zap and brandish (wand/staff commands) have them, so it fits the pattern. Recite does as well, if I remember right. But again, I have to point out a warrior spamming stone skin is highly unlikely during combat. That in-combat check is quite effective. Gilain has tested that quite extensively, in all his fighter greatness. If this is an out-of-combat concern, I revoice my prior comments on friends buffing you before you leave town and wonder whats the difference?

[Selveem]

The reality is few people give thought to PVP balance until their character is utterly decimated like a troll wielding a barbie doll.

Please, look at the whole, not the portion.

I'm all for changing brewing, provided balance in PVE and PVP are considered.

[Nysan]

Again, not sure where the issue is for PvP in this case. Pre-combat, no different than a friend buffing you. In-combat, I have no problem with a potential lag in quaff, though I do not see much reason after my testing with the Dex check.

[Brar]

Provided balance in PVE and PVP are considered.

Then clearly, we cannot follow DnD rules and I have nothing more to say about it.
Nothing bad about it but just that you can turn the rules all the way you want, PC against PC fight are not considered in DnD and are not balanced at all.

No fighter without the element of surprise and very special preparation can kill a wizard on his skill alone and even so he will have a most hard time because allowing the wizard one spell means death to the fighter. (Any half intelligent wizard will have contigency spells and a time stop ready)

And I don't understand the concern for pvp either in fact... it is just delayed buffing from your friend, nothing more.

Last words from me as I don't think the discussion will really get constructive from now on and the important stuff have been said

Brar

[Nysan]

I hope this wont degrade into something unfortunate. We were doing well and really getting into the topic, and informing a few folks just how potions work in FK.