Problems with the new ranger armor prof level

[Luthir]

First of all, let me say I understand, and somewhat agree with, the reasons for changing rangers armor proficiency.(viewtopic.php?f=51&t=12850)
However, as a player of a counciled/apprenticed ranger, I feel the way current equipment and trades are set up, doesn't work well in the game. For example - a large portion of the equipment available from ranger/druid vendors, is hide - medium armor. I suppose many might say that this is meant for druids - but then you have leathermaking, which, I believe, was originally a ranger trade almost entirely. You can make hide armor with that - but now all the new rangers won't be able to wear half the armor they could make. Another thing - during my apprenticeship, most of the master rangers I took lessons from, recommended scalemail as a good combat choice, though favoring leather or cloth for other duties. (side note: This change was put in place partly because the staff didn't want rangers running around in platemail - but seriously, how many rangers (with some experience in the matter) would really try to use platemail for much of anything but combat situations?) And, lastly, there's a small shop in the Ardeep Ranger grove, which sells elven chainmail, which just so happens to be medium armor. This is sold only to rangers, and only once. (I know it's out of stock, but that's not the point) (Another side note: This merchant was part of Markana's training - he said elven chainmail was as quiet as leather. This might need checked on, either the training or the armor) So, finally, I'll say this. In order to fix this, I believe one of two things has to happen. One, give the rangers two points again. Or two, reduce hide armor to light, fix the chainmail, etc.

And finally, please excuse my rant.

[Selveem]

To be fair about this, I don't have a ranger.

However, I feel that rangers should not be wearing medium armor. Even in D&D, Rangers could not wear Medium armor; light armor only for those boys. If they want something higher, they can take armor proficiency feat if/when in game.

I don't feel that using that example is necessarily a good one as previously we didn't have all of these different armor options like we do now. It is possible that the 'leathers' you speak of were just done via one of the code updates' mass changes that were required in order to assist bringing us closer to 3.5 ruleset. Though it may not be the case anymore, I've known at least triple the amount of magical studded leather as there are magical full plate. At least one magical piece of leather you can just straight-up buy! No quest needed! Further, the availability for studded leather is unquestionable as I have had multiple characters go through the 'studded leather' phase in advancing through their Fighter career.

Rangers get spells for a reason: it's to supplement and (and augment) their natural abilities as well as increase their usefulness to the party.

If you'd like to introduce more studded leather into the game (or any other light armors for that matter), this game does (and in my opinion always should) need more builders to introduce new, fun, immersive areas into the game. I'd suggest applying to build a new area and maybe talk to other builders to see if they're interested in working with you on whatever area you're interested in creating since it may be your first one.

[Brar]

Thanks for you input as a new ranger Luthir, us old treehuggers sometimes forget how it is when you don't have your stats maxed out :p

Well, first rangers are meant for light armor end of the line.
Now to argument that, With the new crafting system, the staff implements the last missing armor type in the name of Chain Shirt (also called light mail in FK). It is a light armor, something like a half chain.
Elven chainmail in DnD is considered light armor, and thus all the elven chainmail in the game should be transfered to the Chain shirt type (which was not possible before a few weeks ago and those things takes time)
Now remember that technically speaking, there is no elven metal, here is what an elven chainmail is:

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This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. Speed while wearing elven chain is 30 feet for Medium creatures, or 20 feet for Small. bla bla bla It is considered light armor and weighs 20 pounds.

Basically, it is a chainmail of mithral made with elven crafting lore to be lighter than usual (and have a fancy snobish name) and thus used by rangers and rogues.

Now for the armor rating, high dex and low armor (ie rangers) is the same as big armor (fighters) which is of course completly off scale compared to mages/priests anyway

Selveem is right in saying that rangers have spells to help them in that, rangers are not healbots like priests do, they requires a very more subtle managment of their spells.

Yet, one thing I would not agree with is those "masters" you speak about telling you that scalemail is good to fight, I think it is a misconception coming from one particular masterwork studded leather ranger's only armor that is a quest reward in the game.
It is called xxxxxxx's scale armor. It is in fact a studded leather made of xxxxx scale, not a scalemail .
It is a common confusion between material (scales) and armortype (scale), or you can burn them on a bonfire next time you see them

For the leather being medium armor, it is basically a bug for most of them, due to the armor type introduction wich change basically all 'hide material' armor to hide armor, even when they are clearly named leather.
For those I would advise to make a bug repost everytime you encounter one for them to be corrected.

To summarize, Rangers are already quite powerful as they are, hopefully nowhere near where they was at a time (I remember the superman I was in my magic chainmail spamming my cure light that healed 20% health :p), but they fulfill their role quite nicely once you understand every tricks.

The only addition I could see to our rangers today would be the combat style, but that will requires a lot of work for all rangers would need their feats to be adapted.

Building more area is also a solution, yet you should come to it when you feel at ease with the game and I would advice for new players to come at it when ready, you should not be feel any obligation for it.
Yet there is a (very small but aggressive) hordes of builder working hard to bring you new areas and some will surely fulfill your dream of more armor possibilities for everyone.

Brar

[Brar]

Quickly to add one thing, I'm all up for rangers being of course able to gain armor prof by training the feat, but then it is a 100% casting failureas it should be for them.

The same that it should disable their combat style feat if they are ever implemented, so yes you can wear heavier armor with feats but you have to choose armor vs spells/free feats.

Brar

[Enig]

Er, 100% casting failure?

The most encumbering of medium armour types, according to the d20 resource site I'm using, imposes a 30% failure for arcane magic. This is moot, however, because rangers use divine magic that, to the best of my knowledge, is not affected by spell failure, and I haven't been able to find anything that suggests rangers ought to be handled uniquely.

The free combat style feats are lost in medium/heavy armour, though, yeah.

PS: Maybe you're thinking of bards? It says they can use light armour without being affected by spell failure, but not medium/heavy. Even bards would still only be hit by a 20-30% spell failure rate in medium armour, though, depending on the type.

[Selveem]

The most encumbering of medium armour types, according to the d20 resource site I'm using, imposes a 30% failure for arcane magic.

Not true!

A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

100% casting failure!

True, it's talking about druids but Druids are very similar to Rangers in that they don't need to have a God/dess to cast their Divine spells. I don't think that should be the case for Rangers, of course, but at the same time I doubt we want to see a bunch of Urban Rangers in plate.

[Brar]

No no, it's Enig that is right, being on pills for my headaches for 3 days doesn't help me Was thinking druids and speaking rangers when speaking of spells, shame on me

Brar

[Lathander]

Rangers are penalized for wearing leather armour?

I've been away lately and am unaware of the change. The above posts confused me a bit. Is that what your are saying? Please clarify.

[Enig]

The most encumbering of medium armour types, according to the d20 resource site I'm using, imposes a 30% failure for arcane magic.

Not true!

A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

100% casting failure!

True, it's talking about druids but Druids are very similar to Rangers in that they don't need to have a God/dess to cast their Divine spells. I don't think that should be the case for Rangers, of course, but at the same time I doubt we want to see a bunch of Urban Rangers in plate.

Dude! Maybe you should include the whole blurb you're quoting:

Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. (A druid may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description) Druids are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only wooden ones.

A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

This is a special restriction placed only on druids (not on rangers) that isn't about armour type but rather armour material. Bone or ironwood medium armour would be fine, no? In any case, what's the connection between a maximum 30% *arcane* magic failure rate and a specific restriction placed on a *divine* casting class?


*cough* *Ahem* Anyways, weird digressions aside, rangers aren't penalized for wearing what the code considers leather armour (as a form of light armour) but they are penalized by wearing 'scalemail', which is considered a medium armour type. So, something like red dragon scalemail would qualify for giving rangers a penalty (the loss of their bonus feats) even though it might also be considered a form of leather.

[Brar]

So, something like red dragon scalemail would qualify for giving rangers a penalty (the loss of their bonus feats) even though it might also be considered a form of leather.

No no no, red dragon scalemail is scalemail, red dragon leather is leather.

Leather, studded, padded, scalemail, chainmail ect is not related to a material but to an armor type.
It takes in consideration, the weight, the encumbrance, ect.

If you kill a dragon, you can make x leather armor, or x scalemail armor, or x hide armor... (need to check the real numerical value in the books)

Armor type is not related only to material, but as it says, to a type of armor.

Brar

[Enig]

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No no no, red dragon scalemail is scalemail, red dragon leather is leather.

Leather, studded, padded, scalemail, chainmail ect is not related to a material but to an armor type.
It takes in consideration, the weight, the encumbrance, ect.

If you kill a dragon, you can make x leather armor, or x scalemail armor, or x hide armor... (need to check the real numerical value in the books)

Armor type is not related only to material, but as it says, to a type of armor.

Brar

Yeah, what he said!

That's what I was trying to say, but Brar put it a lot better

The main point I'd clarify though, and tried to get across before, was that something like red dragon scalemail is *not* counted as leather armour despite ostensibly being made out of leather (ie. the treated hide of an animal, in this case a red dragon).

[Alaudrien]

Yes but wouldn't a ranger or even a druid be able to wear such armour without penalities? I know I've seen and read a few books where not all rangers have elven chainmail but normal chain mail as well? Now It irks the crud out of me when I see a ranger in platemail its like an oxymoron to my eyes! But ya stuff like dragons scalemail etc would be like studded leather to a ranger?

[Brar]

No, Rangers can wear padded, leather, studded leather or chainshirt made from dragon hide, scales or anythign dragonish.

There is no reason they can wear a scalemail (which is not an armor made of dragon scale, but an armor made of little "scalelike" piece linked together)

Scalemail is a type of armor classified as medium because of his weight and encumbrance, and in DnD ranger can use there feats only if they wear light armor, it has nothing to do with materails, their light armor can be made of anything but they need to be light.

Druids can wear light and medium armor made of non-metal stuff, so a scalemail made of dragon is no problem for them.

You can have a dragon's scale studded leather (there is a wyvern one in the game already)m it is a studded leather armor made from the scales of a dragon (and thus not a scalemail).
But you can also have a dragon's scale full plate which is a ful plate made from the scales of a dragon.

Quoted from Official DnD book

Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dragons to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality. One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a small or large masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger.

See what I mean?

Brar

[Zorinar]

As I understand it Rangers can wear any armor they want without spell failure or penalty (even heavy if they have the feats for it), but if they wear anything but light armor they lose their class combat specialization feats and ranger skills. A druid cannot wear metal armor except for Mielikki druids that CAN wear metal armor up to their proficiency in it, which I think is Medium.

[Lysha]

As I understand it Rangers can wear any armor they want without spell failure or penalty (even heavy if they have the feats for it), but if they wear anything but light armor they lose their class combat specialization feats and ranger skills. A druid cannot wear metal armor except for Mielikki druids that CAN wear metal armor up to their proficiency in it, which I think is Medium.

Actually, hon, my ranger has a 25% spell failure with light and medium armor. (or at least, the score sheet SAYS so)

[Selveem]

Hey Laura, I think that's something that needs to be discussed. I believe the spell failure % chance listed is specifically arcane spell failure. Paladins, Rangers, Druids, and Priests are not affected by that the same way.

[Eltsac]

Yes, spell failure listed in score sheet goes for "arcane spell failure", not for divine spells.

El.

[Raona]

To return to the points Luthir originally raised - are there some items previously aimed at Rangers which they can no longer (by default, at least) use, such that either the item or the text introducing it needs to be changed?

Lathander (and others wondering): Rangers now get only 1 armour proficiency feat for "free." They actually have one taken away from them when they guild. This allows them to wear only light armour, not medium armour, which includes (currently) hide armours, unless they expend an extra feat point (at any point in their lives) on armour proficiency.

[Brar]

Well, for me, the problem is an item one. What needs to be changed is the Elven chain pieces to match the fact that they are supposed to be light armor and not medium (in making them light chain that gives 5AC instead of 4AC), otherwise eveything is fine and according to books.
Rangers in DnD can't wear hide armor without loosing the free feats they get as Hide is medium armor.

[Raona]

Note to self: Need to set Value3 to 21 on all elven chain items. I think that is the only change, but check AC and encumbrance vs. canon.