Supplicating

[Theleus]

Hello, I'm fairly new and have one faithed character. After much work my favour level was up to favoured, then I got in over my head in a fight and the wretched hobgoblin kept following me when I would flee. My health being at 14% I decided I had no choice but to supplicate recall. I typed and the very same moment I pressed enter the hobgoblin died. Rotten luck, huh? But when I checked score my favor level was down to ignored. I guess now I'm stuck building it up from scratch again, but I think that amount of favour loss for a recall is just wrong. Okay, I can see dropping to ignored after getting a faith item that you get forever, but for recall or recovery of a corpse I think that one and a half to two levels of favor experience is just about right, maybe a bit more for supplicating revival, but not all the way to ignored. I am interested in other opinions. Do you agree with my points?

5+ levels of favour is way too much for a simple recall in my mind

[Selveem]

If you think that's harsh, try playing a character who has no coded God. You'd be wishing your faith level only dropped to ignored while you're sitting in the fugue hoping an Imm will take pity on you since no other characters in the game know you.

[Theleus]

If you think that's harsh, try playing a character who has no coded God. You'd be wishing your faith level only dropped to ignored while you're sitting in the fugue hoping an Imm will take pity on you since no other characters in the game know you.

I absolutely respect the people that choose to follow an uncoded deity, there's a lot of consequences to that decision, but it can make for good rp. Even so, that's not the question I asked. Do you think it's right for supplicating recall to have the same cost as supplementing for a faith item?

[Selveem]

You're asking the wrong person, brotha. Personally, I feel too much emphasis is placed on following coded deities. In my opinion, I think the coded rewards give too much an edge over characters following uncoded deities (or following none at all, for that matter).

• Upon following a coded deity, your symbol instantly gives you a +1 enhancement bonus to a stat.
  
  You are granted the ability to recall when you might otherwise die (even out of areas you normally can't!).
  
  Free raise dead without external assistance (when some people have to wait days or more).
  
  Free supplicated items (two to three!) of various magical bonus.
  
  Access to temple trainers (not all Gods).
  
  Access to faith armors, weapons, special items via purchase in temples (not all Gods).
  
  Access to faith-related quests (not all Gods).

[Harroghty]

I believe that it is entirely reasonable. Let's put this in perspective: you are bothering your deity with a personal problem (probably) of your own making. The Faerunian pantheon is populated by petty, flawed, powerful creatures, not by gods after the fashion of many modern monotheistic religions; they want something from you if they have to disturb their busy schedules to personally move you.

[Rictinta]

I was pretty much going to say the exact same thing Harroghty. A god would not be very happy having to pick you up and drop you else where. Seriously... imagine Sune having to stop getting her nails done to do something like that? I get where you are coming from, and I understand that it doesn't seem like a big enough deal for what you are getting in return, but we are roleplay based, so if you think about if it were you begging a god for help out of your situation at the last possible moment before death... yeah I don't think they'd be happy with you for inturrupting manni/peddi time.

[Theleus]

I see. I think though, that if Elminster asked the pre-time of troubles mystra for a favor, I do not think she would ignored him afterwords because she loved him. In my mind, the more they love you the less they'd mind doing you a favor every now and then. From a game-code standpoint I think it should require a certain amount of favor, but not all your favor experience. But it's seeming like I'm the minority here.

[Brar]

I see. I think though, that if Elminster asked the pre-time of troubles mystra for a favor, I do not think she would ignored him afterwords because she loved him. In my mind, the more they love you the less they'd mind doing you a favor every now and then. From a game-code standpoint I think it should require a certain amount of favor, but not all your favor experience. But it's seeming like I'm the minority here.

Well, from an FR historical point of view, it's quite the ontrary..everytime he asked for one thing, she demanded 100 times what he asked for

I too think that in FR, gods tends to ask far more than they are willing to give. Expecially to their chosen, the more in favor you are, the more they are asking from you.

[Theleus]

I see. I think though, that if Elminster asked the pre-time of troubles mystra for a favor, I do not think she would ignored him afterwords because she loved him. In my mind, the more they love you the less they'd mind doing you a favor every now and then. From a game-code standpoint I think it should require a certain amount of favor, but not all your favor experience. But it's seeming like I'm the minority here.

Well, from an FR historical point of view, it's quite the ontrary..everytime he asked for one thing, she demanded 100 times what he asked for

I too think that in FR, gods tends to ask far more than they are willing to give. Expecially to their chosen, the more in favor you are, the more they are asking from you.

Suggested reading : Elminster in Hell

[Harroghty]

I think though, that if Elminster asked the pre-time of troubles mystra for a favor, I do not think she would ignored him afterwords because she loved him. In my mind, the more they love you the less they'd mind doing you a favor every now and then.

Theleus: You could argue that, but with any kind of sliding scale (the more your god loves you, the less things cost) then you raise a whole range of questions about fairness.

The system now has a uniform standard for all players and, yes, it might be arbitrary and severe, but it limits people from abusing what I believe should be a rare privilege and is therefore effective.

[Athon]

Also to consider:

Elminster is a rarity among rarities - he is one of the most powerful characters in all of Faerun. And even then, Mystra often asks a lot from him.

Whereas many PCs in FK can be considered well-above the typical adventurer and are powerful in their own right, I don't think our common PCs are at the level of Elminster.

I think the current setting for favor is fine and in many cases, it is exceedingly simple to get.

[Theleus]

I think though, that if Elminster asked the pre-time of troubles mystra for a favor, I do not think she would ignored him afterwords because she loved him. In my mind, the more they love you the less they'd mind doing you a favor every now and then.

Theleus: You could argue that, but with any kind of sliding scale (the more your god loves you, the less things cost) then you raise a whole range of questions about fairness.

The system now has a uniform standard for all players and, yes, it might be arbitrary and severe, but it limits people from abusing what I believe should be a rare privilege and is therefore effective.

well, here's an example. Lets say you get killed somewhere out of the way, you supplicate revival, but then you can't get back to your body and there's a reset and boom all your stuff is lost. I think if you have sufficiently high favor level you should be able to both supplicate for revival AND recovery of your body.

[Harroghty]

It might be convenient to bring back to your body along with resurrection, but what cost is that personal convenience coming at? You are essentially making it so you have a no-fault, no-role-play method to return to life.

[Xryon]

I'm not positive, but I had thought that corpses were no longer lost during resets, anyway..

[Theleus]

It might be convenient to bring back to your body along with resurrection, but what cost is that personal convenience coming at? You are essentially making it so you have a no-fault, no-role-play method to return to life.

The cost would be that it would cost more favor. Here's an idea. Lets say that supplicating revival is 4 levels of favor and supplicating recovery of body is 2 levels of favor. There could also be an in-game penalty of 50% for supplicating multiple times in the same in game day, so the person who uses both supplications on the same day loses more favor then one who uses the same two supplications on different days. I could see a system like that being reasonable.

[Harroghty]

But translate a higher cost of favor into what that really is: nothing you can't get back. You can always get more favor and, yes, it might take some time, but how many people realistically die several times a day (or even several times a week)?

Reincarnation costs one point from your character's permanant Constitution statistic because it involves no role-play and is the least in-character method of a player character returning to life. You are proposing that we turn "supplicate resurrection" into basically the same thing (even better, in fact) and that it cost less.

There are some parts of this game that could be easier, but they are not because the game is designed to encourage you to interact with other players and role-play. That is my essential out-of-character disagreement with your ideas (beyond the in character one I posted about earlier).

[Gwain]

I'm not positive, but I had thought that corpses were no longer lost during resets, anyway..

I think they still survive either twenty four hours real time or forty-eight, no matter what happens to the gameport.

[Brar]

Suggested reading : Elminster in Hell

You're speaking about the post-time of trouble Mystra here, and about probably her biggest mistakes which is in big part responsible for the 4th edition cataclysm.....

As stated, the chosen are not even to be taken into account, but keep in mind that Elminster had to sacrifice everything that he cherised for Mystra's sake.
Look at the Return of the Archwizard and how Cyric's chosen is treated...
Read Ed Greenwood's article in dungeons & dragons magazines, you will find more info on "out of novels" material.

Forgotten Realms is far more than the novels, actually, most of them are not even canon to the settings and a lot of mistakes can be found in them, expecially concerning the cosmology.

But I'm disgressing here from the thread (been a long time since I hijacked a thread )

To remain on the topic, I think the supplicate is a bonus and should stay as such, I don't think it should be used more than once in a real week or so. They are a little bonus for following a coded deity, but shoudl not become something you use everytime you're in trouble.

[Nysan]

I see no problem with the current state of 'supplicate recall'.

1. Getting favour is not that hard. Many characters get it simply by doing what they usually do... be it burying the dead, crafting items, killing, healing or whatever it is your faith prefers. It adds up quickly.

2. Recall is not a use daily feature, no supplicate option should be. They should be rare, thought involved, decisions that you should really, really want.

3. There are many means to magically move in-game already. Most can even buy potions of recall from shops/vendors. Usually, these methods are expensive... and for good reason. Making 'supplicate recall' much easier to use defeats the purpose of using other methods. It would be a "Why pay 25 platinum for a potion, when I could just grind 2 faith ranks for free?" mindset. Its current favour reduction keeps it in line with the expense of other recall/movement options.

4. Coded faiths get many bonuses already. Free, cheap magical travel should not be one of them.

[Selveem]

Bear in mind I've already stated my stance on this subject and I'm not making these observations to support Theleus' thread's intent:

1. Getting favour is not that hard. Many characters get it simply by doing what they usually do... be it burying the dead, crafting items, killing, healing or whatever it is your faith prefers. It adds up quickly.

May not be hard, but if you're a non-caster class, it can be a very, very long process. The added lag with bury often leaves me unable to bury the corpses I make in time. Killing is only for a few certain faiths. Aid shouldn't be abused. Rescue shouldn't either; I've seen people get punished for spamming both. Crafting items is only for certain faiths.

3. There are many means to magically move in-game already. Most can even buy potions of recall from shops/vendors. Usually, these methods are expensive... and for good reason. Making 'supplicate recall' much easier to use defeats the purpose of using other methods. It would be a "Why pay 25 platinum for a potion, when I could just grind 2 faith ranks for free?" mindset. Its current favour reduction keeps it in line with the expense of other recall/movement options.

I'm not sure what vendors you're looking at, but every single vendor I've ever checked has been sold out.