Rangers/Druids and Metal

[Orplar]

Alright,

Been completely confused right here. As I understood it rangers were allowed to wear metal. Granted they dont walk around in FULLPLATE or anything qualified as heavy, but I've heard of rangers wear chain/light chain/scale. Is this incorrect? Can someone find out and let me know? Im not as familiar with cannon rules as some of our other players.

On the same note,

Melikki being the Patron of Rangers was said to give her druids all the abilities of rangers.

"Generally, druids of Mielikki take on the abilities of rangers. Unlike other druids, who are not allowed to wear metal armor, or use weapons restricted by their oaths, they may use all kinds of armor and weapons rangers normally use"

Is this true as well? Again, not anything qualified as heavy, just like rangers they have to be able to get through the woods with relative ease and quiet.

I know that Chauntean druids are -NOT- allowed to wield metal among other restrictions that makes them different from then Mielikkian faith.

Official ruling/debate please? I'd like to be able to RP correctly without getting flak.

Thank you.

[Frachiir]

Well, by canon, rangers are not under any restrictions at all when it comes to weapons and armor. Traditionally, they stick to light armor since they don't get medium or heavy armor proficiency right off the bat. That said, they're perfectly capable of getting those proficiencies and wearing heavier armor as long as they can live with the decreased speed, armor check penalties, weird stares from the other nature folks, etc. It is to my understanding that the most popular type of armor for rangers is studded leather which does count as metal armor.

Druids, on the other hand, are restricted from wearing any kind of metal armor. This rule is not because it somehow interferes with their spellcasting. It's more of an oath that each druid willingly takes and has something to do with how worked metals interfere with a druid's ability to feel one with the wilds. I imagine it's kind of up to each individual druid to justify their exact reasons for not wearing metal armor. As for weapons, I've never heard of druids being restricted to certain weapons based on their vows. It's just a matter of weapon proficiencies as far as I know.

As Orplar has noted, Mielikki is known for her large number of druid and ranger followers. For reasons that aren't made entirely clear in canon sources (at least not in the druid entry in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book), Mielikki is more lax in the vows Her druids must adhere to. Without quoting the entry verbatim (can't be breaking copyright laws, now, can we?), the books say druids of Mielikki can use all standard weapons and armor that rangers would be able to use, specifically listing simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.

Again, this entry isn't terribly clear. It doesn't really say that druids get more proficiencies by worshipping Mielikki. In fact, I find it a bit weird that it lists medium armor in that entry since rangers don't get medium (druids do, though). It just suggests that the oaths taken are more lenient, allowing druids to wear metal armor and use metal shields (again, those oaths don't affect weapons at all; the traditional druid weapon is a scimitar after all). I kind of wonder if the rules regarding weapon and armor proficiency might be different in 3.0? I don't think the Forgotten Realms books were reprinted in 3.5, so it's possible that these rules don't match up so well with the new ones. If so, that might explain some of the confusion.

All this being said, I'm afraid the NPCs in FK make for bad role models. Every one of them I've seen is decked out in "metal chain" or something equally nondescriptive.

[Mele]

Markana's ranger lessons tells rangers not to wear metal.

FK =/= FR.

It would be nice to have a discussion of peoples opinions on if said stance should be changed, though.

[Nysan]

With the updates on armor in FK, I don't see a reason to prevent rangers, and forest druids, from wearing any form of light armor, this includes "light chain" according to helpfiles (the only PC-craft metal light armor). Medium/heavy armor, not so much, since they would impact ranger-ish skills and spellcasting. Chauntean druids, I'm torn since they usually depicted as leather/hide restricted by faith.

[Gwain]

Could be argued that rangers might avoid heavy armour because of its potential to damage local ecology. A leather coat that snags a branch will tear, but a mail vest will tear a branch. If rangers are dying or suffering catastrophic wounds from their light armour even with bonuses though, I'd not be against light mail for adventuring.

[Brar]

In 3.5, a ranger wearing anything heavier than light armor loses his combat abilities benefits, so no more dual wielding or archer mastery.

Except that, they can wear all the armor they want.

"A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter."
From the Player's handbook entry, it is an oath to their gods of nature (and not forest...) which is not to be taken lightly and have consequence if not followed.

Mielikki accept her druids to be more like rangers and use the armour and weapons that rangers usually do, but it doesn't mean their proficient with them, just that they can use them.

[Lathander]

I recall a similar discussion when we started to move toward 3.5 ed. I'm going from memory here (never a good thing) but recall that metal is allowed, but frowned upon IC. The heavier the armor, the heavier the frowning. A suit of full plate would likely get you verbally chastised by most fellow rangers and likely lead to a poor reputation. The ranger skills generally have negative modifiers applied to the wearing of metal armor. It should be hindering pathfinding, hiding, sneaking etc.

[Larethiel]

Light metal-armour, such as elven chainmail or mithral, should be totally fine and does not interfere with any skills, although there are no coded light metal armours and elven chain is a medium armour in FK.

[Nysan]

Light metal-armour, such as elven chainmail or mithral, should be totally fine and does not interfere with any skills, although there are no coded light metal armours and elven chain is a medium armour in FK.

According to armorsmithing helpfile, "light chain" is listed as light armor. When I have a free day on Gilain, I'll make some to see the stats. But, if it truly is a light armor, why would a ranger be looked down upon for wearing a steel light chain vest, or something?

----
Armoursmithing

==============

Syntax: construct armor <location> <material> <armortype> [size] [masterwork]
construct armor shield <material> <shieldtype> [size] [masterwork]
disabled: construct barding <location> <material> [armortype]
mend <object> <raw material>
construct armor {with no arguments, will return a list of the types of
shields and armour that are within your skill level to construct.}

Example: construct armor legs titanium 'plate mail' medium
Example: construct armor shield tin 'heavy metal shield' large

Armoursmithing is the craft of making armour from smelted metals. In order to
learn how to smith armour a PC will need to do a quest to learn the skill.
The skill is not learned with the train command but only by quest. You can
also mend armour that is in need of repair.

* Valid <locations> include arms, feet, legs, body, head, hands, and waist

* Valid <armourtypes> include:
Light: Padded, Leather, 'Studded Leather', 'Light Chain'
Medium: Hide, 'Scale Mail', 'Ring Mail', 'Heavy Mail', Brigandine
Heavy: 'Splint Mail', 'Banded Mail', 'Half Plate', 'Full Plate'
* Valid [shieldtypes] include buckler, 'light wooden shield', 'heavy wooden
shield', 'light metal shield', 'heavy metal shield', and 'tower shield'

--remaining cut for space--
----

[Raona]

To my mind, the best fix here, if not already in place, is to ensure that the 3.5E consequence of having all ranger/druid skills cease to function when wearing anything > light armour. Anyone know for sure whether that is currently in place?

In the meantime, let me be clear, though: FK is not FR, and if Markana taught you, and told you ixnay on the platemail bay...you should be heeding his words, if you have any sense about you ICly.

[Larethiel]

Maybe alternative materials for armour can be introduced like enchanted wood/leaves/bark or something. And just out of interest, why would a druid be restricted to only light armour? There is hide armour in game that is medium and also IC for druids to wear. Just saying, medium and/or heavy armour has not necessarily have to be made of metal.

[Nysan]

Maybe alternative materials for armour can be introduced like enchanted wood/leaves/bark or something. And just out of interest, why would a druid be restricted to only light armour? There is hide armour in game that is medium and also IC for druids to wear. Just saying, medium and/or heavy armour has not necessarily have to be made of metal.

Besides the obvious point of heavier armor has increased spell failure %, I don't see any reason a druid should not be allowed hide (medium) armor. That would be as far as I wold go though, no other medium armor (metal!) types.

Of the three druid groups we have...

Mielikki druids wear/use anything a ranger does.
Malar druids often wear their kills as trophies and such. Hides would fall into this group, I would think.
Chauntean druids is iffy, since they favor lighter leathers and cloth usually.

As Raona pointed out though, this is FK not FR. So, house rules are the final word on the matter.

[Brar]

First thing, Elven chainmail in game is canon and is light armor. It Was corrected by Raona on the introduction of the new crafting system and the introduction of Light mail (which is DnD chain shirt so light armor)

Secondly, "Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations", that sentence is subject to interpretation, but for me it does not change the armor type, a full plate is still an heavy armor, but when you count the limitations, you take the "medium armour" column of the table.

Elven chainmail is a specific case classified with the magical armor in the book, even if it is not magical because it is an oddity among normality.

Next, Spell failure on armor is for arcane caster, hence not for druids.
Druids can wear medium armor and do so most of the time, be it made of wood or hide.

For Moradin' sake, stop confusing armor type and armor material.
Light, medium, heavy has to do with armor type which means weight, protection and encumbrance.

Leather, metal, wood, or anything else have to do with materials.
As odd as it can sounds, you can have a "Studded leather armor" made of strong spidersilk with wood studs and you can have a full plate made of dragon scales which will be good for a druid to wear (if they took that extra armor prof feat) and would not hinder their abilities.

To resume, that's how it works in the rules:

Rangers get hindered by armor type
Druids get hindered by armor material

After that, faith restriction applies, and even more RP restriction apply.

Clearly any normal minded ranger would not wear a full plate in day to day activities, that just goes to the opposite of what a ranger is, and considering that it would hinders most of its capabilities it would be a poor choice in my eyes, yet as a disguise for certain reasons he could wear it and remove it and getting his abilities back.

A druid however, at the moment he wears a piece of metal or uses a metal weapon, he will lose his spells, spell-like and extraordinary abilities for 24h, even if he removes it after, because his gods forbids him access to his power for breaking his oath toward nature. Which can have far more dire consequence.

There is already plenty of non-metal materials in game, hide, leather, energy, gems, wood, silk, ect.. Is there really a need to add more?
I think it falls down to having items made by builders than the need for more materials.

Just my usual random rambling,
Brar

[Nysan]

Next, Spell failure on armor is for arcane caster, hence not for druids.
Druids can wear medium armor and do so most of the time, be it made of wood or hide.

Spell failure was poor wording, blame the lack of sleep. I meant spell failure as in "armor hinders your attempt", "not having the feats" spell/skill failure. Not the % in the score sheet, arcane failure.

[Theolund]

what was the consensus on the armor for rangers?

[Selveem]

Per Brar, the only restriction is the loss of his chosen style when wearing armor greater than light (still correct). Per Mele, the Ranger teachings state they cannot wear metal armors. Mele seems to have stated it is a house rule thing; I wouldn't know as I don't play a Ranger.

Personally speaking, I think there's no real need of an artificial handicap on it. Skills get hindered and if someone wants to take the additional feats for armor proficiency, more power to them. *shrug*

[Gwain]

Rangers or woodsman get bonuses and skills to compensate for a lack of heavy armour though. It seems easier to make and justify having a regular fighter's guild member that loves the forest and wears plate or heavy metals and enjoy the bonuses of that class than to make a ranger, a servant of the wilds that shares in a deep connection with nature and its bounty, silently moving through the forest in light scale or leather who knows it well, swims in its rivers, climbs its trees etc. A ranger to me is a lot like a druid, but less religious and more about protecting.

[Selveem]

Rangers or woodsman get bonuses and skills to compensate for a lack of heavy armour though. It seems easier to make and justify having a regular fighter's guild member that loves the forest and wears plate or heavy metals and enjoy the bonuses of that class than to make a ranger, a servant of the wilds that shares in a deep connection with nature and its bounty, silently moving through the forest in light scale or leather who knows it well, swims in its rivers, climbs its trees etc. A ranger to me is a lot like a druid, but less religious and more about protecting.

The most (in)famous Ranger known to FK wore pieces of full plate, so I really don't see this is a big deal. To me, it all comes down to customization. If you want to wear full plate as a ranger, more power to you, but you'll have to deal with the pain of your swim, hide, move silently, etc. getting a nice, fat penalty.

I'm not really certain I feel that players should have to "justify" their characters to anyone but themselves. Let their imaginations shape their character within the confines of the game's rules (IC/OOC rules and mechanics).

Just out of curiosity, Theolund, is there a catalyst for the question in this thread? Is this something you've already been playing or are contemplating playing?

[Theolund]

Aye I was mostly curious because FK isnt FR but as a rule of thumb alot of the rangers in the books wore chain mail some heavy some light and the rest leather. It's why I was curious! Thanks

[Gwain]

The most (in)famous Ranger known to FK wore pieces of full plate, so I really don't see this is a big deal.

Must have been very hard for them to 'range' in full plate....