I have been thinking about this since the mentioning of the adventurer's guild.
I feel that the "faithing process" seems to be failing, especially with the off-season we're experiencing right now, for Priests.
For those who have ever played an active priest without a faith for longer than a week, the idea that you are useful in a group is a pretty obvious illusion. Without the protective prayers granted by becoming an actual Cleric or Druid, you are forced to spam curative spells that have already been decreased in potency from that of the past which will heal your tank about 5-6%.
What I propose are automated quests specifically for characters of Priest class so that they might learn about the prospective faiths and, after learning, be offered the opportunity to accept their role into the faith.
I do not believe _everyone_ should be eligible for this, however. I believe that only those players who have accumulated a specific amount of total accumulated kismet (exact amount up for discussion) be granted this opportunity as they should have, by then, had at least some basic knowledge of the MUD and the RP expectations (which should also ICly be outlined in the automated quests). Maybe there should also be a level requirement, as there are for other guilds, as well (Debate: level 10?).
While I don't believe everyone should be eligible for this, I would rather have the chance than allow my suggested caveats to veto the idea.
Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
This land shall come to the God who knows the answer to War. -Ninety-Nine Nights
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
I think that would create a "How comes it's so easy for them" senario with other classes and suchlike
in roleplay encouraged environment.
I was given the advice once that when I spotted an experienced player as a hopeful, it wouldn't be wrong for me to speed up the process to get them in quickly and that is exactly what I do if I think they are good enough, quest, symbol, off you go.
I suppose I just don't like the idea of what will probably be a five minute solo quest with a few say "yes" in it and a few "I understand" and your in, and only for one class too.
I understand priests count heavily on belonging to a faith for a great number of thier prayers but
if there is a problem with joining a faith, the route is clearly outlined to Pray, then to apply correct?
in roleplay encouraged environment.
I was given the advice once that when I spotted an experienced player as a hopeful, it wouldn't be wrong for me to speed up the process to get them in quickly and that is exactly what I do if I think they are good enough, quest, symbol, off you go.
I suppose I just don't like the idea of what will probably be a five minute solo quest with a few say "yes" in it and a few "I understand" and your in, and only for one class too.
I understand priests count heavily on belonging to a faith for a great number of thier prayers but
if there is a problem with joining a faith, the route is clearly outlined to Pray, then to apply correct?
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
Honestly I don't care about anyone saying 'how it comes easy to them.' If they don't play their class properly with regards to their God, they'll just be reprimanded anyhow. What's the difference? Those faiths that have no faith manager will at least still get some Priests/Druids. Those that do can still oversee the new members personally. Imms still watch over others, that I've seen.
The Priest class is booty without spells. Try it out.
The Priest class is booty without spells. Try it out.
This land shall come to the God who knows the answer to War. -Ninety-Nine Nights
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Brar
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Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
I don't really like the idea of automated faithing.
not like it at all...
But what I would rather see is the spell level available to non faithed cleric extended to level 4 or 5, that would be a better solution for me.
not like it at all...
But what I would rather see is the spell level available to non faithed cleric extended to level 4 or 5, that would be a better solution for me.
Your friendly house-elf,
Brar
Brar
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
I mean, if you want to look at it that way... Can anyone give me a good IC reason why it shouldn't be automatic?
It's a church, not a cult. You're joining a specific church, not the Vatican. If I made a character who wished to follow Ilmater, but the Painbearer of Waterdeep turned me away because he thought I had a drinking problem, I could move onto the next city until I found a church that would accept me for my problems. Failing that, I could always join a church in a small town.
Talking OOCly about it, I can't guess at a fair reason why a quest shouldn't allow it to be automatic. Again, the faiths with active FMs would still have the ability to demote out of active clergy if a PC acts outside the God's ethos. Those that don't are overseen by Imms who know the God's ethos.
On the Priest (not Cleric/Druid side), your ability to work with your teammates is rather frustrating and the feeling that your group could probably do just as good without you definitely demoralizes the player. It also makes trying to level when there's not people to group with an absolute bear of a task without the help of some coin from friends or very lucky quest rewards.
Really, I just don't see the downsides; if new players are excluded from this process, they're still going through the old process.
Older players wouldn't be required to utilize the quest to become a follower if they wanted to stay a Priest until they do the normal FM interaction.
In D&D you don't, in any of the campaigns I've played, roleplay joining the church just to add a Deity to your scoresheet; you choose it at creation. What the deal is? Why cling to something broken?
It's a church, not a cult. You're joining a specific church, not the Vatican. If I made a character who wished to follow Ilmater, but the Painbearer of Waterdeep turned me away because he thought I had a drinking problem, I could move onto the next city until I found a church that would accept me for my problems. Failing that, I could always join a church in a small town.
Talking OOCly about it, I can't guess at a fair reason why a quest shouldn't allow it to be automatic. Again, the faiths with active FMs would still have the ability to demote out of active clergy if a PC acts outside the God's ethos. Those that don't are overseen by Imms who know the God's ethos.
On the Priest (not Cleric/Druid side), your ability to work with your teammates is rather frustrating and the feeling that your group could probably do just as good without you definitely demoralizes the player. It also makes trying to level when there's not people to group with an absolute bear of a task without the help of some coin from friends or very lucky quest rewards.
Really, I just don't see the downsides; if new players are excluded from this process, they're still going through the old process.
Older players wouldn't be required to utilize the quest to become a follower if they wanted to stay a Priest until they do the normal FM interaction.
In D&D you don't, in any of the campaigns I've played, roleplay joining the church just to add a Deity to your scoresheet; you choose it at creation. What the deal is? Why cling to something broken?
This land shall come to the God who knows the answer to War. -Ninety-Nine Nights
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Brar
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Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
Well, you see it as broken only because you look at the fighting part of the mud, completly foregoing the roleplay part.
In FK and it has been since, this is exactly wat you are saying, more a cult than a church.
There is a lot of thing you don't do in most tabletop, you don't drink, you don't eat, ect....
We are not in a tabletop but in a multiplayer roleplaying environnement.
I agree that our appeal to new player should be reviewed, there no question about it we are all agreeing on that I think, but making faith trivial is just a big loss on RP for me.
There is lots of room for improvement like always, for example I would more see the faithing begin with Acolyte that can raise you to Initiate but not farther, ect than relying on only one or two person (plus the already over busy staff) but making it automatic is just stupid for me and makes us only one more hack and slash like there is so many already.
Updating Priest (non faithed clerics) to higher spell levels would be the good solution for me as it is a "hack and slash" solution for a "hack and slash" problem.
Like my trademark loved phrase, "IC Actions gives IC Consequences" then you can apply it this way, "Hack and slash problem gives hack and slash solutions"
Brar
In FK and it has been since, this is exactly wat you are saying, more a cult than a church.
There is a lot of thing you don't do in most tabletop, you don't drink, you don't eat, ect....
We are not in a tabletop but in a multiplayer roleplaying environnement.
I agree that our appeal to new player should be reviewed, there no question about it we are all agreeing on that I think, but making faith trivial is just a big loss on RP for me.
There is lots of room for improvement like always, for example I would more see the faithing begin with Acolyte that can raise you to Initiate but not farther, ect than relying on only one or two person (plus the already over busy staff) but making it automatic is just stupid for me and makes us only one more hack and slash like there is so many already.
Updating Priest (non faithed clerics) to higher spell levels would be the good solution for me as it is a "hack and slash" solution for a "hack and slash" problem.
Like my trademark loved phrase, "IC Actions gives IC Consequences" then you can apply it this way, "Hack and slash problem gives hack and slash solutions"
Brar
Your friendly house-elf,
Brar
Brar
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
That's getting pretty off topic. I'll just say in my D&D games I did make sure my players were eating rations, drinking from their waterskins, etc. etc.
Back to your on topic portion:
).
That being said, I'm still interested in hearing any IC views as to why my proposal is unsound.
Back to your on topic portion:
I'm in no way suggesting curtailing RP; if you read my post more carefully, I expect players to RP even using the questing method to have their Priests faithed. That's why I said there would still be FM and Imm oversight. I don't understand your fear to be rational: If we have both options and more people are using the questing method over the normal waiting-around-hoping-an-FM-logs-on-or-Imm-intervenes method, then I'd say the suggestion was pretty spot on. If not, then we've still got a backup plan if/when needed.Brar wrote:I agree that our appeal to new player should be reviewed, there no question about it we are all agreeing on that I think, but making faith trivial is just a big loss on RP for me.
What you seem to be neglecting is that combat is RP too. If your friend dies because you're spamming your puny little cure spells that do jack diddly instead of giving them protective spells that would have negated all or most of the damage, then you failed them ICly. It's not your character's fault. You couldn't help it, but that doesn't change the fact that you didn't keep them alive IC. That you now have to find someone to raise them IC or shell out coin IC via an NPC priest (who, by the way, can resurrect and you can'tBrar wrote:Well, you see it as broken only because you look at the fighting part of the mud, completly foregoing the roleplay part.
).That being said, I'm still interested in hearing any IC views as to why my proposal is unsound.
This land shall come to the God who knows the answer to War. -Ninety-Nine Nights
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
Granted I'm new to the MUD, but I'm not neccessarily sure how under the current system roleplay is encouraged by having priests running about with no God and a handful of spells. I'm not complaining myself, I've only been playing a few days, but if it encouraged other players to post about it I assume this is something of an issue. I would also say that hack n' slash is an aspect of the game, obviously being D&D based, and I'm not personally sure that "As long as you can roleplay it doesn't matter if your character is minimally useful in any mechanical sense." is a good thing.Brar wrote:Well, you see it as broken only because you look at the fighting part of the mud, completly foregoing the roleplay part.
Not having been aware that spells for unfaithed priests were level capped to begin with, I'd also think it would help immensely if they got access to all of their spells in those levels. Looking at the cleric spell lists they get around 15-20 spells per level, unfaithed have access to 6-8 of those.Updating Priest (non faithed clerics) to higher spell levels would be the good solution for me as it is a "hack and slash" solution for a "hack and slash" problem.
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
Selveem, I agree and disagree with you.
Summary: I agree that there is a problem with priests (problems even), but we need a more detailed answer than just a coded, quest-giving priest-machine, even one that has a kismet check.
> Clearly I am in favor of automating things (you no longer, for example, need any immortal involvement to become a paladin - it can all be accomplished by PCs using the coded tools available).
> I also agree that we treat some things as sacred cows in FK that are really very common and mundane in the Realms. Specifically, our concept of faiths as factions is at odds with the polytheistic model of the Realms; we treat the Faerunian Powers like Jehovah, Allah, etc. instead of treating them like Zeus et al, Wotan et al, or Jove et al. We are a product of our modern, monotheist age.
> I disagree with only a quest to mint a new priest though. A layman member of the church of Helm, perhaps a guard who has made his prayers to the Great Guard for his whole adult life, would probably have little formal connection to the church. He would make his tithes and his obeisance to the church, but do little else besides perhaps murmur Helm's name in supplication before beginning his watch every day. The same man would probably murmur Tempus's name before battle, Tymora's name (or Beshaba's) before he tossed the dice, and Umberlee's name before he shoved his boat away from the shore.
A priest, however, is a representative of his or her deity. They are a professional in the sense that they know their master's (or mistress') dogma, they know the history, they know the holy days, and so on. This is very rarely accomplished even now. For that reason (more important to me) and yours (more important to you), we can agree that there is a problem with how priests are made, but I think that we need a more detailed solution than a quest in order to satisfy both needs.
> I disagree that kismet is the answer. You can play this game all day and still have no idea about the Realms. We are taking steps now to add more coded, detailed information about the Realms to the game because while you cannot make a horse drink, you can surround him with water.
> I believe that maybe some kind of hybrid system would be appropriate. A system that is mostly coded, but that has a PC mentorship and veto option for quality control. (Understand that this would be a massive undertaking to accomodate all faiths!)
> I also think that a "Layman" faith rank (for those who do not aspire to gain any responsibility in the faith) should be offered to all classes except priests. Those holding this rank would be able to supplicate for resurrection or recall, but not for items. They would receive a holy symbol, but could never gain any kind of faith rank.
Summary: I agree that there is a problem with priests (problems even), but we need a more detailed answer than just a coded, quest-giving priest-machine, even one that has a kismet check.
> Clearly I am in favor of automating things (you no longer, for example, need any immortal involvement to become a paladin - it can all be accomplished by PCs using the coded tools available).
> I also agree that we treat some things as sacred cows in FK that are really very common and mundane in the Realms. Specifically, our concept of faiths as factions is at odds with the polytheistic model of the Realms; we treat the Faerunian Powers like Jehovah, Allah, etc. instead of treating them like Zeus et al, Wotan et al, or Jove et al. We are a product of our modern, monotheist age.
> I disagree with only a quest to mint a new priest though. A layman member of the church of Helm, perhaps a guard who has made his prayers to the Great Guard for his whole adult life, would probably have little formal connection to the church. He would make his tithes and his obeisance to the church, but do little else besides perhaps murmur Helm's name in supplication before beginning his watch every day. The same man would probably murmur Tempus's name before battle, Tymora's name (or Beshaba's) before he tossed the dice, and Umberlee's name before he shoved his boat away from the shore.
A priest, however, is a representative of his or her deity. They are a professional in the sense that they know their master's (or mistress') dogma, they know the history, they know the holy days, and so on. This is very rarely accomplished even now. For that reason (more important to me) and yours (more important to you), we can agree that there is a problem with how priests are made, but I think that we need a more detailed solution than a quest in order to satisfy both needs.
> I disagree that kismet is the answer. You can play this game all day and still have no idea about the Realms. We are taking steps now to add more coded, detailed information about the Realms to the game because while you cannot make a horse drink, you can surround him with water.
> I believe that maybe some kind of hybrid system would be appropriate. A system that is mostly coded, but that has a PC mentorship and veto option for quality control. (Understand that this would be a massive undertaking to accomodate all faiths!)
> I also think that a "Layman" faith rank (for those who do not aspire to gain any responsibility in the faith) should be offered to all classes except priests. Those holding this rank would be able to supplicate for resurrection or recall, but not for items. They would receive a holy symbol, but could never gain any kind of faith rank.
"A man may die yet still endure if his work enters the greater work, for time is carried upon a current of forgotten deeds, and events of great moment are but the culmination of a single carefully placed thought." - Chime of Eons
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
I'm in complete agreement with this. Having taken it the other way until recently, I can see the merit in polytheism. Gods are to some people a means to an end, a conduit of faith, weakness is a given and desperation often has some turning to other deities. The prospect of laymen is appealing to this kind of roleplay, I see it as a way relieving pressure at the cost of higher abilities and bonuses. For the rest, the option to serve a particular deity and gain bonus is an attractive alternative. Forcing people into faiths automatically does not work for everyone. Faithing is an engaging process, its supposed to ensure that the person following a particular faith can rp it properly with no major issues. Having a layman status would ensure that those who cannot properly adhere can at least do it without traumatic ramifications, those are not fun for anyone.Harroghty wrote: > I disagree with only a quest to mint a new priest though. A layman member of the church of Helm, perhaps a guard who has made his prayers to the Great Guard for his whole adult life, would probably have little formal connection to the church. He would make his tithes and his obeisance to the church, but do little else besides perhaps murmur Helm's name in supplication before beginning his watch every day. The same man would probably murmur Tempus's name before battle, Tymora's name (or Beshaba's) before he tossed the dice, and Umberlee's name before he shoved his boat away from the shore.
A priest, however, is a representative of his or her deity. They are a professional in the sense that they know their master's (or mistress') dogma, they know the history, they know the holy days, and so on. This is very rarely accomplished even now. For that reason (more important to me) and yours (more important to you), we can agree that there is a problem with how priests are made, but I think that we need a more detailed solution than a quest in order to satisfy both needs.
> I disagree that kismet is the answer. You can play this game all day and still have no idea about the Realms. We are taking steps now to add more coded, detailed information about the Realms to the game because while you cannot make a horse drink, you can surround him with water.
> I believe that maybe some kind of hybrid system would be appropriate. A system that is mostly coded, but that has a PC mentorship and veto option for quality control. (Understand that this would be a massive undertaking to accomodate all faiths!)
> I also think that a "Layman" faith rank (for those who do not aspire to gain any responsibility in the faith) should be offered to all classes except priests. Those holding this rank would be able to supplicate for resurrection or recall, but not for items. They would receive a holy symbol, but could never gain any kind of faith rank.
Justice is not neccesarily honourable, it is a tolerable business, in essence you tolerate honour until it impedes justice, then you do what is right.
Spelling is not necessarily correct
Spelling is not necessarily correct
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Brar
- Sword Grand Master
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- Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:05 am
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Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
This sounds very very niceHarroghty wrote:see below (or above depending on how you set your board preference
Brar
Your friendly house-elf,
Brar
Brar
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
I would like to add a bit of my perspective to this interesting discussion.
There are definite problems with the faith system here. Faithing is, of course, the first hurdle players have to jump though when getting into a church. It's a real pain for a newbie. My first character was a druid hopeful. He never got faithed, I had to give up on him. I quit the mud for a while because I was frustrated and felt like I was not "in the club." And that is exactly how I felt. I felt like I stumbled upon a mud that had a good-old-boy club and I was not a member. Since coming back and making zorinar, I have seen other people quit the mud because of their frustration with getting faithed.
I think the current system can at times leave players hanging for far too long. Especially for faiths with no FM's around. This isn't as bad for non cleric players but priests.. seriously.. I have made two since my first failed attempt... priests are very, very limited in what they can do. (pre-druids are even worse off) Sure, you can "role-play" but two weeks, three weeks, one month ... of being in crutches is a long time on a game. Priests have a really hard time make money for spells/equipment/components/mounts...... because you have to fight for that. Priests cannot get decent xp for leveling.....because they have to fight for that. Priests cant fight very well.....because you need the cleric spells that you don't have for that......, so they are stuck in social mode for most of the time. Our player base is small, in fact I am logged in now and there are two people online, so it is not reasonable to tell such a person to find people to help them. Sometimes it's possible, many times it's not, they just have to solo.
Currently we don't have many FM's around. Do we have any regular ones? In fact, a lot of them disappeared when that rule came out that they had to be online for so many hours a week. I wonder if it was becoming more like a job to them than a pleasurable activity? Anyway, people have schedules, lives and duties that require them to be away. It is all an argument supporting automation.
Also, there is another problem I see. Let's be honest here for a moment.... and I so know this is going to strike nerve points and backlash but hey... I've seen it... no use denying it.. long term players know each other here and if they know an FM OOC'ly they can get themselves faithed easily. They can make an IM call and its all good to go. The newbie does not have this option. They don't know anyone, and really they shouldn't need to know anyone to jump into the game. The game should be there for them, ready to take them in and lead them on their path. In fact, it might be worth considering to remove player FM's all-together.
I have seen players who hardly ever log on, show up, get higher faith ranking than my used-to-be regular priest, get amazing,practically off-limits equipment then disappear again for long stretches. Newbies also notice these things and it might not bother me, but when I am asked about it from newbies there is a pretty good chance that it was on their mind. Again, the good-old-boy or gal or whatever atmosphere needs to be removed completely if we want to keep new players.
So the turn offs and frustrations are there. I think automation would help remove some of it and in the end do what we all want... retain players to the mud. If we had a huge player base, with plenty of regular players and FM's in each faith, I think it would be very do-able to continue as we are currently. However, we don't have that player base and we might as well play to what we have currently instead of what we hope it will be.
Z
There are definite problems with the faith system here. Faithing is, of course, the first hurdle players have to jump though when getting into a church. It's a real pain for a newbie. My first character was a druid hopeful. He never got faithed, I had to give up on him. I quit the mud for a while because I was frustrated and felt like I was not "in the club." And that is exactly how I felt. I felt like I stumbled upon a mud that had a good-old-boy club and I was not a member. Since coming back and making zorinar, I have seen other people quit the mud because of their frustration with getting faithed.
I think the current system can at times leave players hanging for far too long. Especially for faiths with no FM's around. This isn't as bad for non cleric players but priests.. seriously.. I have made two since my first failed attempt... priests are very, very limited in what they can do. (pre-druids are even worse off) Sure, you can "role-play" but two weeks, three weeks, one month ... of being in crutches is a long time on a game. Priests have a really hard time make money for spells/equipment/components/mounts...... because you have to fight for that. Priests cannot get decent xp for leveling.....because they have to fight for that. Priests cant fight very well.....because you need the cleric spells that you don't have for that......, so they are stuck in social mode for most of the time. Our player base is small, in fact I am logged in now and there are two people online, so it is not reasonable to tell such a person to find people to help them. Sometimes it's possible, many times it's not, they just have to solo.
Currently we don't have many FM's around. Do we have any regular ones? In fact, a lot of them disappeared when that rule came out that they had to be online for so many hours a week. I wonder if it was becoming more like a job to them than a pleasurable activity? Anyway, people have schedules, lives and duties that require them to be away. It is all an argument supporting automation.
Also, there is another problem I see. Let's be honest here for a moment.... and I so know this is going to strike nerve points and backlash but hey... I've seen it... no use denying it.. long term players know each other here and if they know an FM OOC'ly they can get themselves faithed easily. They can make an IM call and its all good to go. The newbie does not have this option. They don't know anyone, and really they shouldn't need to know anyone to jump into the game. The game should be there for them, ready to take them in and lead them on their path. In fact, it might be worth considering to remove player FM's all-together.
I have seen players who hardly ever log on, show up, get higher faith ranking than my used-to-be regular priest, get amazing,practically off-limits equipment then disappear again for long stretches. Newbies also notice these things and it might not bother me, but when I am asked about it from newbies there is a pretty good chance that it was on their mind. Again, the good-old-boy or gal or whatever atmosphere needs to be removed completely if we want to keep new players.
So the turn offs and frustrations are there. I think automation would help remove some of it and in the end do what we all want... retain players to the mud. If we had a huge player base, with plenty of regular players and FM's in each faith, I think it would be very do-able to continue as we are currently. However, we don't have that player base and we might as well play to what we have currently instead of what we hope it will be.
Z
Seek ye victory? Ye shall eventually find defeat.
Seek ye defeat? Ye shall most certainly find it.
Seek ye nothing? Then all ye can find is victory.
Seek ye defeat? Ye shall most certainly find it.
Seek ye nothing? Then all ye can find is victory.
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
The token system worked well for the paladins.
Could it be implemented for priests in some fashion?
Could it be implemented for priests in some fashion?
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
Real quick here, before I post a more thoughtful and detailed reply, what is the token system?
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
Ok so I have an idea that might appeal to both sides.
Priests are an important part of any faith that is pretty obvious, the voice of the god on the realms and suchlike.
So perhaps we should take a more roleplay intensive view to the training of priests, make it fun and let them have
access to more prayers in the meantime.
How?
In the helpfiles they pretty much outline "initiate" rank as a novice priest, so I say lets make that rank just so
as a priest in training. They could engage in roleplay, perhaps even a couple of coded lessons (not too many)
with tokens just like the paladins before they become ordained in full by the FM. This way we have:
1. chances for roleplay
2. priests get enrichment
3. priests will have access to most of the skills/prayers available to a cleric (I don't think all should be given until being ordained, it's a compromise)
4. it keeps the command structure of faiths largely unchanged.
So what happens if a priest wants to become a cleric?
they go do an automated "Prospective priest quest" they get some vestments or something as proof they have completed it, they go faith apply for the faith they want to join, anyone from prelate or upwards can then take them up to novice rank, a trainee priest.
is that still too bogged down? does anyone have any suggestions as to how this might be viable?
If this were implemented I would also suggest heightening the org structure of faiths by adding another rank in between acolyte and prelate to fill the gap as it were, since I think such a move would increase the number of priests anyway.
Note: this is just for priests, other classes I think should still follow the current route and I like the idea of a "layman" rank too.
Priests are an important part of any faith that is pretty obvious, the voice of the god on the realms and suchlike.
So perhaps we should take a more roleplay intensive view to the training of priests, make it fun and let them have
access to more prayers in the meantime.
How?
In the helpfiles they pretty much outline "initiate" rank as a novice priest, so I say lets make that rank just so
as a priest in training. They could engage in roleplay, perhaps even a couple of coded lessons (not too many)
with tokens just like the paladins before they become ordained in full by the FM. This way we have:
1. chances for roleplay
2. priests get enrichment
3. priests will have access to most of the skills/prayers available to a cleric (I don't think all should be given until being ordained, it's a compromise)
4. it keeps the command structure of faiths largely unchanged.
So what happens if a priest wants to become a cleric?
they go do an automated "Prospective priest quest" they get some vestments or something as proof they have completed it, they go faith apply for the faith they want to join, anyone from prelate or upwards can then take them up to novice rank, a trainee priest.
is that still too bogged down? does anyone have any suggestions as to how this might be viable?
If this were implemented I would also suggest heightening the org structure of faiths by adding another rank in between acolyte and prelate to fill the gap as it were, since I think such a move would increase the number of priests anyway.
Note: this is just for priests, other classes I think should still follow the current route and I like the idea of a "layman" rank too.
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
Basically what yo're suggesting is already in place for drow priestesses and it worked well down there, I think. Has my support, for what it's worth.
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
This is a long post. I'm just saying it now so you're warned.
That does bring me to an important question, and I hope that someone answers it completely and honestly. What are the goals of this MUD, as an entity and organization? Does it want more players? I ask because the rest of my post will assume that it does.
Not only is combat an aspect of roleplay, but being able to group with other players and be an effective member of combat participants leads to more opportunities for roleplay. Combat aside, having a faith (by code) allows a priest to do things like acquire the garb of their faith, enter certain parts of the temples to their gods, and gain quests that are reserved for members of that faith. All of these are fairly important to effectively roleplaying a dedicated priest. Since you can't do any of them without being faithed, I would also state that faiths are broken.
Faith Managers and (if there are none present) applications will make ascending the ranks of faiths exactly the same as it is now. This means that you will have laymen, clergy, and people important to the faith of varying degrees who are putting in the time and effort necessary to advance. Just like real religions and tabletop roleplaying. That statement doesn't mean I support the "layman" faith level. I'm actually against it.
Most sane and experienced DMs do not allow the priest of Torm in the current adventuring party to be the equivalent of Torm's cardinal. Not without a really good reason. Usually, if you want that kind of title or position for your character, then you have to talk to the DM and probably has to do things for the church, which means quests and communication. I see no reason why FK should be different. If it is, it's actually decreasing the fun levels of the game, which drives potential players away.
Awesome things shouldn't be given away to players willy nilly, but being able to legitimately say you have a god/dess is not actually in the awesome category. Being able to say that the church recognizes you as an important person is but, you shouldn't have to be important to your deity in order to follow them.
This is exceptionally annoying. I own a priest who hasn't been able to gain a real deity since his inception (or even a fake deity for that matter), and I eventually stopped playing him because the only thing I could ever do with him was roleplay. I'm not saying I don't like roleplaying. I love roleplaying, and if you knew more about me, there is no way you would ever disagree with that. But in any game that features the possibility of being in combat, I would sometimes like to participate in combat. That's not an option for this character, and as fewer people began to play, roleplaying all the time became less of an option. So I stopped playing him. Fortunately, he's not my only character, so I still play here. It just makes me wonder how many potential players this game has lost for similar reasons.Selveem wrote:For those who have ever played an active priest without a faith for longer than a week, the idea that you are useful in a group is a pretty obvious illusion. Without the protective prayers granted by becoming an actual Cleric or Druid, you are forced to spam curative spells that have already been decreased in potency from that of the past which will heal your tank about 5-6%.
That does bring me to an important question, and I hope that someone answers it completely and honestly. What are the goals of this MUD, as an entity and organization? Does it want more players? I ask because the rest of my post will assume that it does.
I would actually prefer automatic faithing for, at the very least, priests. For all characters would be awesome. Since I'm almost sure that the chance of that happening is actually 0, I presently support automated faithing, instead.Selveem wrote:What I propose are automated quests specifically for characters of Priest class so that they might learn about the prospective faiths and, after learning, be offered the opportunity to accept their role into the faith.
I don't even know why the guild system exists in the MUD's current incarnation. When FK was a 2e thing, I got it just fine. Anymore, I don't understand at all. On topic, though, I'm ambivalent about this part.Selveem wrote:I do not believe _everyone_ should be eligible for this, however. I believe that only those players who have accumulated a specific amount of total accumulated kismet (exact amount up for discussion) be granted this opportunity as they should have, by then, had at least some basic knowledge of the MUD and the RP expectations (which should also ICly be outlined in the automated quests). Maybe there should also be a level requirement, as there are for other guilds, as well (Debate: level 10?).
The only people I can see making this complaint are the champions of the bard and paladin classes. And I don't disagree, but that's a topic for another thread.Briek wrote:I think that would create a "How comes it's so easy for them" senario with other classes and suchlike in roleplay encouraged environment.
I don't think that's what was meant by automation. A quest that puts you in the "Ihaveagod guild," yes, but not "take five minutes of your time to get what takes a ranger/thief/somekindofmage several hours of questing to achieve".Briek wrote:I suppose I just don't like the idea of what will probably be a five minute solo quest with a few say "yes" in it and a few "I understand" and your in, and only for one class too.
I don't see this as a solution at all. I think at least part of the point here is that having a god is an important part of being on this MUD. It's difficult for many players, especially new ones, to get a god, and so being allowed to significantly participate in the MUD is likewise difficult. That drives away new players. That's not an opinion, but an observation. Since I came back, 18 days ago, I've tried to bring on three new players. Two of them declined because they heard about how difficult it is to get faithed, and what that means for their prospective characters.Brar wrote:But what I would rather see is the spell level available to non faithed cleric extended to level 4 or 5, that would be a better solution for me.
No, he isn't. He's stating that in D&D (the game that this MUD attempts to emulate), you join a church by writing it down on your score sheet.Brar wrote:Well, you see it as broken only because you look at the fighting part of the mud, completly foregoing the roleplay part.
Not only is combat an aspect of roleplay, but being able to group with other players and be an effective member of combat participants leads to more opportunities for roleplay. Combat aside, having a faith (by code) allows a priest to do things like acquire the garb of their faith, enter certain parts of the temples to their gods, and gain quests that are reserved for members of that faith. All of these are fairly important to effectively roleplaying a dedicated priest. Since you can't do any of them without being faithed, I would also state that faiths are broken.
Automating faithing (or even making faithing a part of character creation!) will not make having a deity trivial. Frankly, I don't even think that's possible in a well-handled ForgettenRealmsesque game.Brar wrote:I agree that our appeal to new player should be reviewed, there no question about it we are all agreeing on that I think, but making faith trivial is just a big loss on RP for me.
Faith Managers and (if there are none present) applications will make ascending the ranks of faiths exactly the same as it is now. This means that you will have laymen, clergy, and people important to the faith of varying degrees who are putting in the time and effort necessary to advance. Just like real religions and tabletop roleplaying. That statement doesn't mean I support the "layman" faith level. I'm actually against it.
Most sane and experienced DMs do not allow the priest of Torm in the current adventuring party to be the equivalent of Torm's cardinal. Not without a really good reason. Usually, if you want that kind of title or position for your character, then you have to talk to the DM and probably has to do things for the church, which means quests and communication. I see no reason why FK should be different. If it is, it's actually decreasing the fun levels of the game, which drives potential players away.
Awesome things shouldn't be given away to players willy nilly, but being able to legitimately say you have a god/dess is not actually in the awesome category. Being able to say that the church recognizes you as an important person is but, you shouldn't have to be important to your deity in order to follow them.
Wait, really?! That's cool.Harroghty wrote:> Clearly I am in favor of automating things (you no longer, for example, need any immortal involvement to become a paladin - it can all be accomplished by PCs using the coded tools available).
The individual in this same example is actually why I think faithing should be a part of character creation. Again, having a god and being recognized by that god should be easy, but becoming an important member of the church should not.Harroghty wrote:A layman member of the church of Helm, perhaps a guard who has made his prayers to the Great Guard for his whole adult life, would probably have little formal connection to the church. He would make his tithes and his obeisance to the church, but do little else besides perhaps murmur Helm's name in supplication before beginning his watch every day. The same man would probably murmur Tempus's name before battle, Tymora's name (or Beshaba's) before he tossed the dice, and Umberlee's name before he shoved his boat away from the shore.
Except that a decent quest for faithing could provide precisely the information you suggest is necessary to become a priest of a particular deity. Heck, many temples already have quests in them that provide that exact information, right now. Perhaps a priest should be required to complete this quest before the quest to become a faithed priest. That makes sense to me.Harroghty wrote:...For that reason (more important to me) and yours (more important to you), we can agree that there is a problem with how priests are made, but I think that we need a more detailed solution than a quest in order to satisfy both needs.
Please elaborate.Harroghty wrote:I believe that maybe some kind of hybrid system would be appropriate. A system that is mostly coded, but that has a PC mentorship and veto option for quality control.
I find this particular option to be a complication which is currently unnecessary to enhancing the experience of ForgottenKingdomsMUD.Harroghty wrote:> I also think that a "Layman" faith rank (for those who do not aspire to gain any responsibility in the faith) should be offered to all classes except priests. Those holding this rank would be able to supplicate for resurrection or recall, but not for items. They would receive a holy symbol, but could never gain any kind of faith rank.
I support this. I came back, looked at the who list, and went "Holy carp. There are a few characters online who worship deities that weren't popular at all the last time I played!" and then I found out that those deities are the ones with the most active Faith Managers right now. So, for as much as I thought things had changed, they actually stayed the same. That was pretty disappointing. If we didn't need to rely on the active FMs to get faithed, and could actually go through quests for that, I think the diversity I perceived would have actually been real. It would be a fantastic equalizer for players both old and new. And let me tell you: new players love equality. So do older players. It makes the game more fun. I speak only from experience.Zorinar wrote:In fact, it might be worth considering to remove player FM's all-together.
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
I think that restructuring some of the processes for early priests could really improve the game for newcomers and all-in-all make FK a funner game.
However, I don't necessarily believe that you should automatically be faithed just by being a priest. I think having a priest training/guild system similar to all the other classes in the game would be fun. However, I think the reward should be different, and it's something I've felt fairly strongly about for a good while.
Upon completion of the priest 'lessons,' unfaithed priests are given access to a full spell list (up to a certain level maybe?).
This will help unfaithed priests early on and ESPECIALLY with priests of uncoded deities. Being faithed still has its benefits, including RP, favor/faith benefits, and domain spells. I think it's a win-win for FK.
Another idea that might help make faithing be more rewarding if this was to be implemented: give domains their bonuses. For example, the healing domain lets you cast healing spells at +1 caster level, fire domain lets you turn or destroy water creatures as a priest turns undead, war domain gets weapon proficiency and weapon focus with their deity's chosen weapon, etc. If these are already coded, then my apologies for not noticing, but I think it would add some really fun diversity to FK.
However, I don't necessarily believe that you should automatically be faithed just by being a priest. I think having a priest training/guild system similar to all the other classes in the game would be fun. However, I think the reward should be different, and it's something I've felt fairly strongly about for a good while.
Upon completion of the priest 'lessons,' unfaithed priests are given access to a full spell list (up to a certain level maybe?).
This will help unfaithed priests early on and ESPECIALLY with priests of uncoded deities. Being faithed still has its benefits, including RP, favor/faith benefits, and domain spells. I think it's a win-win for FK.
Another idea that might help make faithing be more rewarding if this was to be implemented: give domains their bonuses. For example, the healing domain lets you cast healing spells at +1 caster level, fire domain lets you turn or destroy water creatures as a priest turns undead, war domain gets weapon proficiency and weapon focus with their deity's chosen weapon, etc. If these are already coded, then my apologies for not noticing, but I think it would add some really fun diversity to FK.
~Vanguardier Athon, High Priest of Torm~
~Moranall, Fighter of Waterdeep~
~Moranall, Fighter of Waterdeep~
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
Marty,
This is a topic that was brought up while you were gone. I think we'd like to hear your input on the matter as it could be something of worth for FK.
This is a topic that was brought up while you were gone. I think we'd like to hear your input on the matter as it could be something of worth for FK.
~Vanguardier Athon, High Priest of Torm~
~Moranall, Fighter of Waterdeep~
~Moranall, Fighter of Waterdeep~
Re: Faithing for Priests (Specifically)
I would love to see some changes to the faithing system in general. I think I may have rambled some but I hope I get the point across.
Automated quests at each level of the faith from Inquiring all the way up would be nice. These quests would give you knowledge about your faith that is appropriate for your faith level. These quests would not induct you or advance you into the faith, it would give you a foundation of knowledge and be required before you could be advanced or inducted. I have found it hard with many faiths to find someone to discuss the basics with you. An automated quest makes sure that every PC knows the basics about their faith and that this knowledge advances as they advance in rank without the Faith Manager having to teach them.
For example once you Inquirer you are offered a quest that tells you about the basics dogma and outlook of the church. Once Hopeful another quest about the maybe about the roles of a hopeful and who the higher ranked members are or perhaps more detail about the faith. At the completion of each quest you get an item that indicates you have taken the lessons for that rank of the faith. Perhaps a token for lower levels and maybe a necklace or ring or something as you get higher so that those of your faith know your rank IC. Part of an early lesson would be which symbols are which and sometimes you may need turn in your previous rank indicator at the end of your lesson to get your new rank indicator. This has similar aspects to Briek's idea and I would love to see them combined.
If the priest class gets an additional lesson that talks more about their role in the church all the better.
I also LOVE the idea of a "Prospective priest quest" that gives them vestments that they have to do before they try and join a faith.
I am against automating the process of getting faithed but I like the idea of of letting higher ranked members of the church who are NOT FMs advance up to the novice rank.
If some of the learning is automated, and the advancing is not automated but slightly lower ranking members are allowed to advance some I think the process could be... smoothed out a little.
I guess what I am trying to say is I would like to see being part of a church as a process. Right now it is all about getting that symbol, getting accepted. I would like to see each step as a process that contributes to the growth of your character. A bunch of little steps up the ladder instead of one big jump from no faith to faithed.
Automated quests at each level of the faith from Inquiring all the way up would be nice. These quests would give you knowledge about your faith that is appropriate for your faith level. These quests would not induct you or advance you into the faith, it would give you a foundation of knowledge and be required before you could be advanced or inducted. I have found it hard with many faiths to find someone to discuss the basics with you. An automated quest makes sure that every PC knows the basics about their faith and that this knowledge advances as they advance in rank without the Faith Manager having to teach them.
For example once you Inquirer you are offered a quest that tells you about the basics dogma and outlook of the church. Once Hopeful another quest about the maybe about the roles of a hopeful and who the higher ranked members are or perhaps more detail about the faith. At the completion of each quest you get an item that indicates you have taken the lessons for that rank of the faith. Perhaps a token for lower levels and maybe a necklace or ring or something as you get higher so that those of your faith know your rank IC. Part of an early lesson would be which symbols are which and sometimes you may need turn in your previous rank indicator at the end of your lesson to get your new rank indicator. This has similar aspects to Briek's idea and I would love to see them combined.
If the priest class gets an additional lesson that talks more about their role in the church all the better.
I also LOVE the idea of a "Prospective priest quest" that gives them vestments that they have to do before they try and join a faith.
I am against automating the process of getting faithed but I like the idea of of letting higher ranked members of the church who are NOT FMs advance up to the novice rank.
If some of the learning is automated, and the advancing is not automated but slightly lower ranking members are allowed to advance some I think the process could be... smoothed out a little.
I guess what I am trying to say is I would like to see being part of a church as a process. Right now it is all about getting that symbol, getting accepted. I would like to see each step as a process that contributes to the growth of your character. A bunch of little steps up the ladder instead of one big jump from no faith to faithed.