Elves in Shilmista Casting Phantasmal Killer

[Athon]

This isn't necessarily a bug, but seems the most appropriate area for it.

It appears that the Elven elders in Shilmista cast phantasmal killer. Phantasmal killer does not seem to be an appropriate spell for a low-level grinding area. Most, if not all, characters that go there will have low will saves and will be instagibbed.

I personally do not believe instant-kill spells belong in a low-level grinding area.

[Althasizor]

This isn't necessarily a bug, but seems the most appropriate area for it.

It appears that the Elven elders in Shilmista cast phantasmal killer. Phantasmal killer does not seem to be an appropriate spell for a low-level grinding area. Most, if not all, characters that go there will have low will saves and will be instagibbed.

I personally do not believe instant-kill spells belong in a low-level grinding area.

Does it not make sense for the Elven elders of Shilmista to be able to cast a fourth level spell?

[Harroghty]

This is really a suggestion.

I feel, however, that this is a little bit of an unfair description of the issue; you can still kill many of the other, much more mundane, mobiles in this area in order to gain experience. It is a choice to engage the cabal of elders (which are flagged SENTINEL, separate from the other mobiles, and are not flagged AGGRESSIVE) and choices have consequences. You could always use the consider command to make some critical deductions about their capabilities and decide to attack someone else.

[Athon]

This is really a suggestion.

I feel, however, that this is a little bit of an unfair description of the issue; you can still kill many of the other, much more mundane, mobiles in this area in order to gain experience. It is a choice to engage the cabal of elders (which are flagged SENTINEL, separate from the other mobiles, and are not flagged AGGRESSIVE) and choices have consequences. You could always use the consider command to make some critical deductions about their capabilities and decide to attack someone else.

For the elders in the middle of the amphitheater where quests are, I can see it. But seeing how everything else is pretty much purely a grinding zone, my point stands. The elders of all three races have little-to-no purpose.

The point of the story is that instant-kill spells really don't serve much purpose in an NPC grinding zone. There's no fun in it and it's only a matter of time before a newbie low-level gets killed in Shilmista.

Consider? It's pretty well-known that consider isn't a very useful command.

Edit: Also, none of the other mobs are aggressive, at least to orcs.

[Athon]

I should clarify my point a bit.

If the intention is for the mobs to be difficult/stronger than the rest, that's fine. I still don't believe they should be casting instant-kill spells in a lowbie grinding area.

Instant-kill spells have their place, but it should be reserved for the higher-up, more dangerous places (Like the UM, for example).


Althasizor, this is a matter of designing the game to be enjoyable, not whether or not an elf wizard can cast a 4th-level spell.

[Althasizor]

I should clarify my point a bit.

If the intention is for the mobs to be difficult/stronger than the rest, that's fine. I still don't believe they should be casting instant-kill spells in a lowbie grinding area.

Instant-kill spells have their place, but it should be reserved for the higher-up, more dangerous places (Like the UM, for example).


Althasizor, this is a matter of designing the game to be enjoyable, not whether or not an elf wizard can cast a 4th-level spell.

There's a difference between making it enjoyable, and just plain making it easier. Keeping in mind that the MUD is RP-based, which makes more sense? That they should have no form of protection? To me, I don't see this as an issue of 'lowbie grinding areas having 4th level spells' so much as 'I'd like my orc to smash through this village'. As Harroghty pointed out, there are other mobs there that don't have these spells.

[Athon]

There's a difference between making it enjoyable, and just plain making it easier. Keeping in mind that the MUD is RP-based, which makes more sense? That they should have no form of protection? To me, I don't see this as an issue of 'lowbie grinding areas having 4th level spells' so much as 'I'd like my orc to smash through this village'. As Harroghty pointed out, there are other mobs there that don't have these spells.

As I mentioned, I have no problems with the mobs being difficult. Instant-kill spells are more of a grief in most cases. I'd much rather have these mobs be able to kick my ass regularly instead of the 10th one I fight randomly casting phantasmal killer and one-shotting me because I'm an Orc at low-level with absolutely no will-save.

There is always a balance between what's "real" and what's best for the MUD. I'm not calling to making it easier; I'm calling to get rid of griefing spells that -ruin- the game at lower levels.

Gray orcs have a +1 level adjustment, access to very limited resources, and absolutely no one to RP. Things are more than difficult enough. You should know, I'm not a twink, but I would actually like to level my characters too, you know.

[Athon]

I would like to point out that in all my time in FK, this is the first mob I've seen outside the UM casting an instant-kill spell. In an area that caters to the level 10-20 range. Let's go put phantasmal killer in Howling Peaks?

Edit: Another thing: The real issue is that I did not know these mobs were flagged SENTINEL. I can see the mobs in the ampitheater being SENTINEL, but the elders/leaders of all four races (elves/barbarians/dwarves/orcs) seemed like normal mobs to me.

[Althasizor]

There's a difference between making it enjoyable, and just plain making it easier. Keeping in mind that the MUD is RP-based, which makes more sense? That they should have no form of protection? To me, I don't see this as an issue of 'lowbie grinding areas having 4th level spells' so much as 'I'd like my orc to smash through this village'. As Harroghty pointed out, there are other mobs there that don't have these spells.

As I mentioned, I have no problems with the mobs being difficult. Instant-kill spells are more of a grief in most cases. I'd much rather have these mobs be able to kick my ass regularly instead of the 10th one I fight randomly casting phantasmal killer and one-shotting me because I'm an Orc at low-level with absolutely no will-save.

There is always a balance between what's "real" and what's best for the MUD. I'm not calling to making it easier; I'm calling to get rid of griefing spells that -ruin- the game at lower levels.

Gray orcs have a +1 level adjustment, access to very limited resources, and absolutely no one to RP. Things are more than difficult enough. You should know, I'm not a twink, but I would actually like to level my characters too, you know.

As Harroghty pointed out, there are other mobs there that don't have these spells.

At any rate, how does it "-ruin- the game at lower levels. "? Would you prefer that everything be flat, identical? For the level 10-20 range, there's plenty of options. Such as almost literally any other mob in that very same area. In the level 10-20 range, a player character can learn phantasmal killer themselves. If it makes sense from an RP perspective, and even follows the same rules that players follow(If we were talking about level 5 straw dummies, I could see your point.), then where is the problem?

You knew all these things were true of grey orcs when you created the character, why would you attack a nonaggressive spellcaster? Initiating that fight is your choice anyway. You seem to like to exaggerate things a bit. A single spell on a single mob in a single area somehow makes it impossible to level your character? Um, alright.

I'll keep an eye out for other mobs outside of UM casting instant-kill spells, I'm sure they're out there. Still though, if the "area that caters to the level 10-20 range." it should only do so if the area also fits ICly. While we are at it, I would like to suggest that all of the mobs not strictly within high level zones like UM and UD have their stats dropped to 1 and their attacks removed(Haha). Phantasmal killer in Howling Peaks? Sure, it seems about as likely that a goblin got their hands on it as an elven elder after all.

Does their being flagged SENTINEL really matter so much? Is that relevant? Would, or even better, -Should- that have affected your decision to attack them or not?

[Athon]

At any rate, how does it "-ruin- the game at lower levels. "? Would you prefer that everything be flat, identical? For the level 10-20 range, there's plenty of options. Such as almost literally any other mob in that very same area. In the level 10-20 range, a player character can learn phantasmal killer themselves. If it makes sense from an RP perspective, and even follows the same rules that players follow(If we were talking about level 5 straw dummies, I could see your point.), then where is the problem?

You knew all these things were true of grey orcs when you created the character, why would you attack a nonaggressive spellcaster? Initiating that fight is your choice anyway. You seem to like to exaggerate things a bit. A single spell on a single mob in a single area somehow makes it impossible to level your character? Um, alright.

I'll keep an eye out for other mobs outside of UM casting instant-kill spells, I'm sure they're out there. Still though, if the "area that caters to the level 10-20 range." it should only do so if the area also fits ICly. While we are at it, I would like to suggest that all of the mobs not strictly within high level zones like UM and UD have their stats dropped to 1 and their attacks removed(Haha). Phantasmal killer in Howling Peaks? Sure, it seems about as likely that a goblin got their hands on it as an elven elder after all.

Does their being flagged SENTINEL really matter so much? Is that relevant? Would, or even better, -Should- that have affected your decision to attack them or not?

You are -severely- overreacting to my claim. I'm not trying to nerf wizards. I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

My point is coming from game design. You want players to be able to react to a situation. You don't want them to go to their next 'logical' path and then get one-shot out of nowhere. I didn't even know these mobs were significant - I had killed several - before one decided to cast that and off me. Another lowbie might make the same mistake. Anywho - every game I've played, they don't try to one-shot the players in a low level grinding zone. In a high level, yes, but those are also high-risk high-reward areas. I'm trying to level to 11, sheesh.

I guess your consensus is that I should avoid these mobs. Fine, so be it. But there is nothing that indicates these mobs are any more powerful in the zone like most higher-level mobs are in areas.

But I'm glad you take my example, which was slightly exaggerated, and just completely blow it out of the water. I don't know what I did to you. But I'm done talking to you.

[Athon]

At any rate, how does it "-ruin- the game at lower levels. "? Would you prefer that everything be flat, identical? For the level 10-20 range, there's plenty of options. Such as almost literally any other mob in that very same area. In the level 10-20 range, a player character can learn phantasmal killer themselves. If it makes sense from an RP perspective, and even follows the same rules that players follow(If we were talking about level 5 straw dummies, I could see your point.), then where is the problem?

You knew all these things were true of grey orcs when you created the character, why would you attack a nonaggressive spellcaster? Initiating that fight is your choice anyway. You seem to like to exaggerate things a bit. A single spell on a single mob in a single area somehow makes it impossible to level your character? Um, alright.

I'll keep an eye out for other mobs outside of UM casting instant-kill spells, I'm sure they're out there. Still though, if the "area that caters to the level 10-20 range." it should only do so if the area also fits ICly. While we are at it, I would like to suggest that all of the mobs not strictly within high level zones like UM and UD have their stats dropped to 1 and their attacks removed(Haha). Phantasmal killer in Howling Peaks? Sure, it seems about as likely that a goblin got their hands on it as an elven elder after all.

Does their being flagged SENTINEL really matter so much? Is that relevant? Would, or even better, -Should- that have affected your decision to attack them or not?

The SENTINEL was a mistake on my part - I thought it made the mob more powerful than an average mob.

And maybe you should actually read what I mention above: I'm not trying to make it easier, I just don't feel that instant-kill spells are necessary in a lowbie grinding area on mobs that have no importance to the game.

[Gwain]

It may have to deal with balancing. I've always seen Shimilsta as a place for low level good aligned characters to train or quest, for evils I've imagined it as a place for more experienced players to go and train or quest. As for phantasmal killer. I could see it only being cast by those that have the capability, not the barbarian or warrior type of mobile.

[Althasizor]

At any rate, how does it "-ruin- the game at lower levels. "? Would you prefer that everything be flat, identical? For the level 10-20 range, there's plenty of options. Such as almost literally any other mob in that very same area. In the level 10-20 range, a player character can learn phantasmal killer themselves. If it makes sense from an RP perspective, and even follows the same rules that players follow(If we were talking about level 5 straw dummies, I could see your point.), then where is the problem?

You knew all these things were true of grey orcs when you created the character, why would you attack a nonaggressive spellcaster? Initiating that fight is your choice anyway. You seem to like to exaggerate things a bit. A single spell on a single mob in a single area somehow makes it impossible to level your character? Um, alright.

I'll keep an eye out for other mobs outside of UM casting instant-kill spells, I'm sure they're out there. Still though, if the "area that caters to the level 10-20 range." it should only do so if the area also fits ICly. While we are at it, I would like to suggest that all of the mobs not strictly within high level zones like UM and UD have their stats dropped to 1 and their attacks removed(Haha). Phantasmal killer in Howling Peaks? Sure, it seems about as likely that a goblin got their hands on it as an elven elder after all.

Does their being flagged SENTINEL really matter so much? Is that relevant? Would, or even better, -Should- that have affected your decision to attack them or not?

You are -severely- overreacting to my claim. I'm not trying to nerf wizards. I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

My point is coming from game design. You want players to be able to react to a situation. You don't want them to go to their next 'logical' path and then get one-shot out of nowhere. I didn't even know these mobs were significant - I had killed several - before one decided to cast that and off me. Another lowbie might make the same mistake. Anywho - every game I've played, they don't try to one-shot the players in a low level grinding zone. In a high level, yes, but those are also high-risk high-reward areas. I'm trying to level to 11, sheesh.

I guess your consensus is that I should avoid these mobs. Fine, so be it. But there is nothing that indicates these mobs are any more powerful in the zone like most higher-level mobs are in areas.

But I'm glad you take my example, which was slightly exaggerated, and just completely blow it out of the water. Stop [Profanity]. I don't know what I did to you. But I'm done talking to you.

It's nice that we can have an intelligent disagreement without one of us hurling needless insults. You didn't do anything to me until just now, thanks. Also, it was nice of you to point out that you're done talking to me and then made another post directed at me. Was there a reason you're spamming for post count? You could have edited your message if you had thought of something else, but maybe now I'm just being a little snippy. I'm sure you can understand why.

You might be misreading exactly everything I've typed here if you think I'm under the impression that your suggestion was nerfing wizards. The difference between our two opinions in that I'm suggesting things be kept RP-appropriate in an RP MUD whereas you're caught up in mechanics. Why are you convinced this is a problem with game design? You mention their next "Logical" path... What part of attacking a village of elves, humans and dwarves is logical? Wait, I know where this is going. It's RP-appropriate for your orc... Bingo. When you understand why you think this works one way, you'll understand why I'm of a differing opinion. Or maybe it's not because it's IC for your orc, maybe it's entirely to do with that you just want a place to spam kill mobs that won't pose a threat to you? Ah, the glory of choices huh? I never said avoid those mobs, that's up to you. You could always just, you know, break their concentration. Or flee when you see chanting, like they helpfully give you time to do.

Rest assured that I've read everything you've mentioned, yet your statement is completely contradictory to your argument. You aren't trying to make the game easier, and yet you don't think spells like this should exist outside of areas like UM and UD? Incidentally, saying the mobs are of no importance to the game has to be pretty insulting to the builder, that was very kind of you.

[Gwain]

I'd just relax fellows, there are a few things in the mud mechanics or otherwise I don't like either, but going back and forth like this won't get them fixed or changed. Its better to just report/suggest something, receive a reply and move on.

[Athon]

How many times have I mentioned that I don't want to make it easier? In almost every post?

You're really hung up on this RP situation. You have to take some things with a grain of salt. Where else am I supposed to go level? The WD sewers? I'm an orc, I raid villages. That's even part of the area (with the orcs on the north side of the river). I don't see how that's far-fetched to you, but apparently I'm the only one on this game that wants to level his character past level 10.

So be it. I pointed this out as a suggestion because in my 11 years of playing this game, I've never seen an isntant-kill spell at this level. I'm going to avoid the elders now. Big whoop.

But my point remains the same. Why don't the bandit wizards on the roads cast phantasmal killer? What doesn't the goblin shaman (if he's coded as a wizard) cast it? Technically, they totally could. But for the sake of the game, they don't.

This game has areas for leveling. That's why it's a game. It also has dungeons for role-play and adventuring. FK is RP-enforced, but if we're trying to enforce it to the level that you're suggesting, than much of Marty's work to having an amazing game engine would be for naught.

[Althasizor]

How many times have I mentioned that I don't want to make it easier? In almost every post?

You're really hung up on this RP situation. You have to take some things with a grain of salt. Where else am I supposed to go level? The WD sewers? I'm an orc, I raid villages. That's even part of the area (with the orcs on the north side of the river). I don't see how that's far-fetched to you, but apparently I'm the only one on this game that wants to level his character past level 10.

So be it. I pointed this out as a suggestion because in my 11 years of playing this game, I've never seen an isntant-kill spell at this level. I'm going to avoid the elders now. Big whoop.

But my point remains the same. Why don't the bandit wizards on the roads cast phantasmal killer? What doesn't the goblin shaman (if he's coded as a wizard) cast it? Technically, they totally could. But for the sake of the game, they don't.

This game has areas for leveling. That's why it's a game. It also has dungeons for role-play and adventuring. FK is RP-enforced, but if we're trying to enforce it to the level that you're suggesting, than much of Marty's work to having an amazing game engine would be for naught.

My point isn't some kind of nazi-regime RP enforcement, but you bring up that it's part of the area. There's kind of a reason those orcs haven't overrun the place already, yeah? There's mobs in the area that you could train on easily, and then there's those ones. My point is that there's a balance there already, and no reason to throw it off.

[Aldren]

I vote to have this thread removed or edited after a consensus and decision is made, due to graphic language and some sub-PG-13 players that we have. Can we try and not curse on a public forum with pre-teen and teenaged players? Thank you.

As for Shilmista, I concur with AlthasaurusRex in that I think it is quite nicely balanced already. Deaths at a lower level, while unfortunate, cause a player to be far warier of new situations and MOBs that they would otherwise attack on spot. I see no reason to change any of this.

Cheers.

[Kallias]

I'd tentatively throw my hat in with Athon - but take it further to remove save or die spells from all but the most severe NPC's. The argument being that even if 30 levels higher, you still have a 5% chance to fail the save. Since this game you may run into 10 casters in under two minutes real time - I don't think it's crazy to remove this relatively good chance of instant death.

If you shouldn't be there - let the NPC's kill you with damage, not a 5% chance of auto failure that results in days of real time not being able to play because you're an orc and know nobody (or human and know nobody).

Insta-kill spells are for things that obviously require a group to fight. (Read: Bosses).



I only read this because I saw there may be swears in it.

Love & Respect
Tyson

[Selveem]

Late to the party, but I am with Athon.

Phantasmal Killer and other instant-kill spells don't "make the game more challenging" at low levels. Low levels have no protection against them unless they're being led around by high levels spelling them up (that's apparently a no-no, by the way).

Instant Kill spells have their place. In quest areas where a "boss" is present, for one. If a group isn't prepared sufficiently in the upper level range quest areas, I could say a "boss" should feel free to use instant kill spells.

Low levels, it's a bit unfair and overpowering. In fact, I'd go as far as to say it's discouraging. I don't know if we can get to a point where mobs only have access to certain spells, but I really would appreciate if that were made possible.

I also want to point out that this is NOT the intentional design of the builder, because I remember this area when I was a newbie here (and for quite some time after). They didn't have instant kill spells. It's a change that has come about quite some time after.

[Harroghty]

First: relax. Secondly, a spell-casting NPC derives its spell list from hard code, not area code. Thirdly, if you disagree with the current spell lists then make a concise cogent argument and provide a suggested change. I did not have the patience to read much of this thread; I am a busy man. Mask is a busy man also and will probably have the same reaction.