A possibility: global reset

[Alvirin]

The "problem" is that some characters were just created more powerful than others, should a new player never being able to be as powerful as an old player, just because the old character did create his character before (no taking in consideration any time spent)?

Also by reducing somewhat the top of god-like attributes that a character can reach, the line between the hardcore player and the casual player will be stretched a bit, meaning that the character that invests lots of time will be always more powerful than the character that doesn't do it, but still the casual player will be alright in comparation with hardcore players in their area of expertise, is that a bad thing?

What is the worse thing that can happen? That a player that plays 40 hours monthly will be almost as good companion to the hardcore player as a player that plays 100-150 hours a month? That characters can't overlap other classes' areas so easily? That it would make sense having a diverse group?

Characters who have the time or had the time, will still have the upper-hand but there should be a limit to how god-like and self-sufficient a character can be, because this is a game that strives to be a cooperative game.

[Nysan]

I find it hard to comment on stat/feat resets until teaching is settled. Over the years, my misfits have adjust to a number of changes to stats, feats, weight limits, ect. They adjusted cause they had options, even if it was as simple as storing more bags on their mount and less on themselves.

Teaching is the kicker. If we stay with a stat/feat required system, hit a reset, and stop glory turn ins... there is a good chance the one character I am thinking of turning into a teacher will be locked out. There would be no other options, no way to adjust. So I would be against a reset.

If teaching is turned into the perk "show you can do it with RP" setup not reliant on stats/feats, then my character is not locked out... there is a way to get there. So, a reset wouldn't bother me as much. All my other misfits can adjust to a lowered int or str, they have before.

Hope that makes sense to someone...

[Mask]

Coin, I think, is a legitimate concern. I think coin needs to be reimbursed along with glory since all that training does add up to a fairly substantial amount.

Any reset would involve some reduction in some stats, plus the reimbursement of glory and some stat points to allow you to re-build up the stats you want your character to be good at. It is envisaged that these reimbursed stat points would be different from normal stat points in that you won't need to find a trainer nor need to spend coin.

[Mele]

I think that old characters will always have that "grandfathered" vision no matter what. "They have that pet from that area never opened now." "They have that item from that rp that won't happen again because they're old." "That npc was taken out of the game so they got to buy things that I can't now." So on, so forth. I think discussing making characters "equal" is moot.

I feel like reset it or not reset it it's all the same. If it's all reset older players will feel a bit unhappy while newer, apparently, do now. I don't understand it, having both old and new characters neither of which sets are running around in constant pk. I think the last pk I participated in was six months ago, on a "grandfathered" character, and I lost to a "new". Horribly, mind you. I'm a firm believer that stats and feats do not make a character better or worser in any situation, pk or rp. What makes the character is roleplay and strategy. You could have a 100 str and lose still because you don't know how to play your class etc.

I also agree with the thought of characters having pumped one stat for it's benefits before(INT to learn quicker), being able to be through with that and pump a different stat with this reset.

[Nedylene]

None of this addresses stats earned from hard dungeons. Not one.

Look, when push comes to shove some of us older characters have been to the planes, been to the abyss, Hell, Valley of the Gods, Brightwater, Gond's Vaults etc etc etc and in many of these places were stat trainers which allowed us to train up that extra point. They were EARNED through hours of going through these places, doing the roleplays, giving time and commitment. What many of you are saying is "It's not fair you have one stat point newer players can't get" Which isn't the case. Get involved, be active, put effort and time and nothing is impossible. What is done is done and stripping these stats from people who HAVE put that extra effort into it has no fairness in it at all. Time, emotions, building and effort has gone into these "older characters" some of you are tromping on. Many of us "older characters" Are still recovering from all the changes we have endured and many of us are enjoying the roleplay and do not want to go back and redo these dungeons which many of them were a once in a character's lifetime deals. Since 2000 let me hint on some things we have had to go through, readapt and change.
*spell lists changing 4 times
*usage of mana changed
*usage of mana removed
*memorization system implemented
*complete and utter redefinition of what stats do (This is a BIG one stats NOW have a completely and utterly DIFFERENT meaning then what they used to)
*different way of calculating hit points
*new defense system
*too many spells and skill changes to count
*spells removed
*skills removed
*spells added

..... It goes on. Oh.. and this entire conversion of glory to feats and stats? That is a NEW feature in comparison to us older crowd. These older characters you claim are overpowered really aren't. They are just different. We were not born or created with more advantages then the newer characters. We were born, created and developed in an entirely different data base, an entirely different game with entirely different mechanics. These past years of work has been playing catch-up learning to adapt to the changes, watching these newer characters take off running and tromp us because we were used to the older ways. What has been done has been done and the past should remain the past. Now we push forward to the future.

I am just completely against yet another upheaval that really has no basis and has been the way that we have been able to catch up with the newer people. *climbs off of her soap box*

[Namic]

I have to say I am 100% against this, people have spent hours, days, weeks, months, and years working on their characters and sure you can give them back their stat/glory points but how would you even go about repaying all of the hours the player has spent working on a character?
Granted this pales in comparison to others but one of my characters has over 1000 hours on him and I would be rather agrivated and slightly prone to say forget this if all of a sudden it all went to nought.

I mean no offense by saying this and I realise what I am saying by it but I spend on average 170.1+ hours a month that dwendles down to an average on 42.5 hours a week on fk. Yes I have no life what so ever and am ok with that. I dont think it would be a possitive think to limit players alotted time on fk as that would hurt the mud more than anything else.

If the reason behind this is that newer characters are feeling weak, well get out there and do some things to get tougher just like the rest of us have done. I dont see any merit in rewarding the newer characters who dont go out and explore by punishing us that have been around for a bit and go out to explore.

*Disclaimer* This is all my thoughts feelings and belifs and not intended as a verbal attack against anyone and I also hope I didnt put in some 411 that I shouldnt have.

[Horace]

The question is: "Do you believe a character should be more powerful do to the era of the mechanics they were created and played in?"

It's that simple. If your answer is "Yes, because it's my power". Then that's cool, I don't blame you in the slightest. But that's the question being asked.

It's very simple.

[Isaldur]

Namic, I suggested that as more of an example to show just where the road of "Let's make everything even" on such a complicated platform like a persistent world leads. Where does it stop? I'm not for this until I see some solid points other than the supposed need to be so "equal" on footing between already established characters and new characters. If this whole thing is truly going to happen because of this burning need of equality then I'd want to see every point given addressed with a counter to make it fair for whoever loses out on this.

Try coming back as a level 50 after the spell and component changes on a character that is completely broke. Now try finding a way to get enough experience to actually learn the 30 to 40+ new spells and skills that all the other new characters can do fairly easily as they progress due to the fact they are not level 50 and can actually get experience. It's a double-edged sword, but I never complained about being hamstrung by the fact so many POSITIVE changes came in while I was gone.

But I just did complain, and I'm willing to bet no one cares even though it's not equal for my old characters to have such a difficult time simply because I started playing before someone else and that I prefer roleplaying to grinding with the time I can get to play.

Why should Johnny "Longtooth" Smith and Betty "Old Battleaxe" Johnson be penalized because they started playing before someone else? I honestly feel like alot of them have been already, or at least the ones that are like me and suck at anything other than roleplaying.

[Nysan]

Characters have to adjust to new systems. But they should not lose special aspects they earned over the years or be cut off from new mechanics because they are older.

Glory is one thing, its a grind venture. Something earned in the Abyss is totally different. That has nothing to do with being "older" or grinding and everything to do with a character being involved in an in-depth RP event and being rewarded for it. It would be the same as removing all Waterdeep fair or Old School of Wonders items still in characters' possession simply because they are not attainable now. I hope any considered change takes into account RP gains vs glory point grinded gains.

[Gwain]

I'm a moderately long term player. I'm for the reset as long as player characters are compensated and given options to reinvest their feat and stat points. I've mostly built my stats for rp uses or to optimize for my class. I've done a restart and change at least once before the current system (back in 2005) and don't mind the changes since. Its a lot better than just discontinuing the glory and feat exchange and bankrupting future characters and creating a discrepancy between generations. This way at least we are all in the same boat.

[Mele]

I don't believe old characters are more powerful one bit. Stats are numbers not an automatic win. I, to this day, do not know the numbers associated with each word level of stats. I've got old characters that would die in 3 seconds to a new character because I simply don't know how to use them well enough. Maybe I'm the only one, but I have a good feeling a lot of other "old" characters would not win a match against someone like Namic, who honestly in terms of life is a "new" character. Because he spent his time online working on that aspect of the mud. (Not meaning that offensively, Namic. Supporting your view of, don't say they're better and want them reset, strive towards power for your own character.)

"Power" is not associated with numeric values only.

I'll use myself as a shameful example here.

Lunette has almost 3k hours. Her stats are indeed, pretty impressive. She was my fourth character made on FK, and my second I actually stuck to and leveled. At the time, I was incredibly oblivious to numbers and all of that.(Still am, as I've stated) I just tired to get the biggest words on as many stats as I could. Prioritizing str and wis as a priest because I thought it's what I needed. I'll fully admit here, her strength is whoa. So here I am, rping around in the Market. Confrontation ensues with a character probably around 500ish hours. Maybe, if that much. The character is a fighter, and frankly I'm not even sure level 50 yet. So the character slaps me and challenges me and alright, mine won't step down from that. Not after being called something pretty scathing. So okay, babbling here. We get to the fields of triumph and I'm like alright, I just have to keep myself healed and I'll be okay. No offensive defensive spells, just heals. I don't buff, nothing. Neither does the fighter, who could not have been made any more than six months back at the time. Few hits in, my health is down to 60%. Alright, I get the one cure off to save me. The fighter sees it. SLAM! Bash! Game over. I lose to a character with less than 1/4 of my hours, and probably my stats as well since they started with lower.

I'm not trying to be the woa show here. I'm just trying to say, it's really not such a big deal. It's not about the numbers. Your score can be pretty and fluffy but it means nothing.

At the end of the day, I think it's apples and oranges if it's changed and don't really mind either way.

[Tavik]

Alright, I need to clarify my argument. My argument is NOT stating that that all characters need to be equal in power. That's not the case now and never will be the case. Older characters will always be more powerful than newer ones. My argument was all about POTENTIAL. If there is no reset and the stat/feat buy option is removed new characters will never have the POTENTIAL that the older ones did. I said I would like to see a level playing FIELD not level players.

Mask, that addressed more than my concern. Not having to pay OR find trainers sounds pretty painless.

Nedylene, I did address hard dungeon stat, though admittedly it was pretty veiled. I used the blanket statement of "special circumstances" I think and basically proposed alternate rewards such as GM'd skills/spells/etc. or new trades or something along those lines in place of the extra stats. These are very beneficial, but are at the same time, still eventually attainable by everyone through some means at some point.
You're other point was that you feel you'll have to play catch-up again. Could you elaborate on this a little more? If you'll be able to put your stats and feats back into anything you want without having to pay or find trainers, you can not only have things done in a matter of minutes, but fix any discrepancies that may have been caused from earlier code changes. I think I'm missing something here and not really understanding.

As for having to weather yet another change, I'll point out that I've been around since January of 2000, so I've gone through a lot of these changes as well. Many of them I didn't like at first, but the more I used them, the more I saw the need for them and the more I got to like them. Best example is the memorization system. I HATED the mem system when it was first implemented (take note that the public was never asked for their opinions before this or many other changes were made, so I really appreciate this discussion). But as time went by, I saw more and more benefits to the system and started liking it. Now, you couldn't get me to go back to the mana system. Furthermore, it brought us closer to the 3.5 rules, which, if I'm not mistaken, is exactly what would be happening here.

I don't think comparing this to items no longer in the game is valid. Sure, new characters cannot get THOSE exact items. But they can get comparable items, just with different names. This is more an IC issue than mechanical one. A 1d8+3 (i made these numbers up) sword of light is still the same as a 1d8+3 runed longsword is it not?

Another point that's sort of being ignored is again the RP aspect. Older characters will always have that IC respect and authority that younger characters won't have. That to me is worth more than the strength to carry 400lbs.

Again, these are my opinions and I'm really not trying to anger anyone. I'm just representing the other side of the discussion. Please, don't hate me

[Lerytha]

I think lots of this has degenerated into an "old" versus "young" ideal.

There are many emotional (and apt) points raised, here. And actually, negatives and positives abound both for new and old characters.

1: Old Character Pros/Cons

* They were "created" with higher stats than current PCs
* They had access to many exotic areas now unavailable
/ They at L50 are unable to learn new skills/spells that easily
/ They find that stats geared towards one idea of a class are now useless as those stats have changed roles
(other pros and cons, most likely)

2: New Character Pros/Cons

* They are created with clear knowledge of new effects of stats
* They are able to plan out feats for new feats, in a way old characters can't
/ They were "created" with lower stats than older PCs
/ They do not have access to many exotic areas now unavailable
(other pros and cons, most likely)

Now, all of that points to a potential civil war!

Or, not.

I tend to think there could be a third group "Medium" players, if you will, which I'm a part. So, we had the lower stats, the inaccessibility to special areas, and many of us have had to use our glory to purchase newer feats which turned up. But... that's not to create a third group, that's to make the point that from the moment the MUD was created, it has evolved. It has left some differences, some unfairness, etc.

But I am sorry, it is not about power. There is a fine line here between IC reputation and OOC actual code ability. I'm going to be frank and honest here, so I can contribute to the discussion. By reputation, Miriel is "one of the greatest mages of Faerun". She's trained her stats up higher than most (by a group RP in a now well-known adventure), and makes a great show about her "power". But here's the nifty little catch. She's only level 47, I hate levelling and PKing so she's hardly done any dungeons and as such doesn't have some of the items that "old/medium" characters should have. And her "power" is largely nonexistent.

Lots of "older" characters are equally built on reputation. If I meet say, the former High Mage Myn, or when I met Eltsac when he returned for a bit. Both of them in terms of reputation are "powerful" characters. Characters that years ago inspired fear and/or awe. But when both returned, they found the MUD had changed and they somehow had to try to scramble back what position they had. I know Eltsac stopped playing his famous mage and just created a new character.

Why have I gone into such detail (and in the case of my main character, very personal detail)? Because I really think its important that people from both sides understand that both sides find different things hard. But just because it looks like older characters are more powerful, does not neccessarily mean that is true.

For the record, I am against the "global reset" as it is currently being interpreted (also for the record I have a feeling it may have been received in a manner it was not meant). But to say I am against the "global reset" because I want to hold onto power, is fundamentally untrue. I'm not offended by that view, but as someone who has never played this game for power (as most would attest to who RP with me), I do want to ensure people understand it is possible to say "I'm not in favour of a reset" without wanting more power.

What are my principle reasons for saying "No" after that opening disclaimer about apparent divides and not leaping to hasty conclusions?

1: There are stats that were improved (yes, using glory) during a special RP which actually mean a lot to me as a player. Again to be frank, I think Miriel increased her intelligence to a very high level during the journey through the Abyss. Now, I'm not clinging to that stat-rise because of a need for power, but because after devoting maybe about twenty Saturday evenings in a row, juggling RL time constraints so I could make those meetings, and actually engaging in an event and with relationships with eight other PCs, the couple of stat benefits I gained actually are a testament to that. And yes, there were items that can "remind" me of that RP. But why must we remove those benefits? And to what end?

2: For the record, I have a sneaking suspicion we may get a post from Dalvyn or Mask soon saying, "Wow, guys, wow, that's not quite what we meant", in which case I am quite prepared to change my mind. As I see it, it COULD be a way for feat/stat points to be returned to all characters so new decisions can be made in light of new changes to magic item creation, teaching, perks, etc. So, after expressing my opposition, I also want to ask if we can redirect the discussion to the other interesting points to the original post?

~Ol

[Namic]

I think myself as well as namic would fall under the medium catagory as I have been playing fk for a year and a few months, Sure I have gotten a few items that are no longer in the game but that is all because I worked for it. (that is my point of view as far as items)

Now when I started all the stats were the same as they are now I believe, and trust me namic didnt become as "strong" as he is over night it has taken hours and hours pouring my life into him working him and building his rp as well as his mechanics to what he is now.

The way I see it is this is more for the new characters/players and the feeling I get from it is instant gratification I mean I dont see why it is good to reward those who just start just for starting. If you want to be a lvl 50 spell slinger of doom then work towards it. If you want to be a lvl 3 bard who makes all the ladys faint because of his dashing words work for it.
*side note* I was raised that if you want something work for it because you will treasure it more.
Personally I prefer to work towards my goals because when I reach them I am able to enjoy the rp experiance alot more. (sorry for all the rambleing if you can make any sense out of it congradulations)

[Jaenoic]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't get what the pros are to the reset? How would this benefit anyone?

I feel that a reset is not necessary, nor a practical idea. It's obviously going to be met with much protest, and to be honest the whole concept of a reset and reimbursing etc seems like one gigantic hassle that's not worth it.

I also don't think the argument of fairness is really valid because the system has changed so many times, and we have never wiped or reset characters because of it. The way I see it, it's not so much a matter of hard work put into those characters being lost, but rather we have always had "generations" of characters with their own pros and cons when new systems came in, and it was never unbalancing or unfair, and I don't believe anyone ever complained. Well, aside from metamagic feats now not making my bulls strength last seventeen weeks, but we dealt with that.

Also if we reset and then reimburse, what was the point of the reset? Players will just be setting their feats/stats to what they used to be. Again, maybe I'm missing a point here?

So I say no. It seems like a gigantic hassle, and to be honest I just don't see the benefits to justify it.

I think the last pk I participated in was six months ago

Ahem. I'm reminded of a certain epic battle of good versus evil in the skies above Waterdeep?

[Balek]

RE: The reset is not fair to old players

There have been several people who have argued that the reset is not fair to old characters because over the years they've earned a bunch of stat points through hard work and dedication. This is a vastly overblown argument. Most of the older characters have extra stat points simply because they were created in an era when characters got more stats. Some of the oldest characters are from a time when they got stat points every two levels instead of every five. Others, including many of mine, are characters that were created during a time when everyone got more stats at character creation. These aren't stats that anyone earned in any way. You got here first and so you have more stats. Even if new characters turn in hundreds of glory to get more stat points, they'll still never reach the levels older characters have. Meanwhile older characters are still free to turn in hundreds of glory and stay just as far ahead. This is clearly unfair.

I will grant that there are some (very few) characters who have earned additional stats through special roleplay opportunities. I have no problem with these (very few) characters having additional stats added back after the reset. I doubt anyone else would have a problem with this either.

RE: Stats don't matter anyway, so why reset them?
Stats DO matter. Every stat provides a concrete benefit to the character. This means that every older character with higher stats has multiple bonuses that are essentially permanent.

• Higher Strength, you do more damage and carry more weight.
• Higher Dexterity -> you have better AC, a larger inventory, and a better Reflex save.
• Higher Intelligence -> you can memorize more wizard spells and you learn all of your skills faster and can open up more quests for more items/glory/money.
• Higher Wisdom -> you memorize more divine spells and have a better Will save and can open up more quests for more items/glory/money.
• Higher Constitution -> you have more hit points and a better Fortitude save.
• Higher Charisma -> you get more bard spells and can open up additional quests for more items/glory/money.

These are all definite and concrete. There can be no argument that having higher stats is universally beneficial. If our stats didn't matter, this wouldn't even be a discussion. Everyone would just sort of shrug their shoulders and go on with their day.

RE: Older characters have better stats to make up for the fact that they have other disadvantages
Some have pointed out that older characters have faced some difficulties through numerous changes to the code. Most of us have all of our feat points locked up already, so we can't spend them on any of the new feats that have been added. A key thing to remember is that part of this reset would be resetting all of the feats that we have. Another facet of this reset is that it allows all older characters to have access to bonus feats. That means fighters and wizards get a bunch of extra feat points to spend. Characters of those two classes will probably end up with more feats than they have now (even if they've spent glory on extra feat points).

A couple people have complained that stats have changed over the years and they don't mean the same thing that they did in the past. If that's the case, wouldn't the opportunity to redistribute points be a good thing? Shouldn't you welcome the chance to reallocate your stats in a way that's best for your character?

To be perfectly honest I don't think most of the arguments against the wipe are very good. The only negative of any significance is for older characters who are going to lose some stat points they did nothing to earn (I am included in this group). Meanwhile EVERYONE has the benefit of being able to reallocate feat points AND the benefit of being able to reallocate stat points if they do something now that they didn't do before.

Can anyone convince me that there's any good reason NOT to do the reset? Is there any argument to be made other than, "It's a hassle for older players who have already been through SO MUCH in dealing with all of the improvements the staff have made to the game?" Is, "But I'm powerful now (due in no part to my own actions) and I don't want to give it up" a valid argument?

[Selveem]

I think not pissing off an obviously decent sized group of our pbase is a sufficient reason.

[Nedylene]

I do not believe it is fair because it is not a matter of earning those stat points. It is a matter of finding the trainers, spending the time searching and.. Most importantly... spending the time LEARNING our characters.

Honestly, Do any of you "newer" generation understand how long it took many of us "older" generation to learn to utilize our characters again? Many of us are finally comfortable "in our skin" so to speak just the way it is. We know our characters strengths and weaknesses. We know what we can handle and what we cannot. We know how we can help and how we cannot. This proposal takes that entire security away from us, forces us to rebuild again and learn how to play our own characters... Again, I'm sorry, I've done that too many times now. I like knowing my limits and I like knowing where I am strong and where I am not. Once stats meant nothing but now they do, properly so. Don't make us spend another 500+ hours learning yet again what we can't and cannot do. Lunette is not the only one to have spent THOUSANDS of hours on a character and found that they are now trounced by the "newer" generation who knows the mechanics. I can guarentee one of my ELDEST characters right now USED to be able to flatten any other class out there and right now... She is mince meat in a PK fight. We are NOT more powerful because of what we have. We are NOT unbalanced as many are arguing.. We are normal characters with hinderances and bonuses and we are FAMILIAR with our characters. It is NOT fun, enjoyable or even remotely entertaining to be sitting in the "skin" of a character you know, love, adore and have an unhealthy bond with... and not KNOW it. Not know what you are capable, how you can handle things or even.... what makes your head go "pop" and roll between your feet as you fly to the land of the dead.

[Horace]

To address a concern Balek left open, I think many players see that if their PC now only has 18 strength instead of 21, that they have to backwards reason some grand story as to why they can no longer lift a pickup truck, and suddenly can only carry a measly motorcycle on their back.

This is an example of wearing the ideal of RP like shackles instead of the nature it was intended. Since it would be a global event, effecting everyone, it's fair enough to just ignore the situation on an IC level.

Of course if you want to roleplay catching crippling dysentery to explain why your charisma is only a 12 and not a 16, then that's fine too. But it certainly it wouldn't be forced.

Balek and Selveem hit it right on the head. The only good argument to not make this change, is because some very large players in the foundation of Forgotten Kingdoms would feel they've been slighted by being made equal in stats.

The truth of the matter is, it may weaken the game initially but ultimately the game will be better for it.

[Nysan]

I'm putting aside the reset debate for a moment, cause I think most of the points on both sides of the fence have been covered. Been thinking of the other part of the OP, updates to the teaching system.

Personally, I feel dropping it to 1 teacher feat and 1 scholar feat is the better path. I do not see the value in creating a new perk system unless there are other ideas on the table for perks. A point system solely for teaching doesn't seem viable.