Thoughts on Hide and being in a group

[Zorinar]

I have some thoughts on the hide skill while being grouped.

As hide is not invisibility, but sticking to the shadows, would it not make sense that your group members would know where you are if you hid while standing in the same room as them? Thus, your group can proceed along knowing they did not lose you and that you are safely there. Or, two thieves in a group can hide together and still be able to follow each other. In reality, you are not hiding from your group mates but you are hiding from those that you have not yet run into. (mobs in another room). Technically, if you wanted to hide from your group, you could leave the room, hide and come back in.

This gives an additional use of the thieves cant skill as well, where thieves actually have a good IC reason to use the skill. If they can still see each other hidden (because they are in the same group and watched each other get into the shadows) then they should be able to communicate without having to break invis.

[Gwain]

Only time I think it would be fine is when a thief is scouting ahead of the group for traps and the like.

[Nylo]

I think it's a great idea. Whether a config option to be visible to your group, or a command to make you visible to one particular person, it makes sense that a thief/ranger should in most circumstances be able to communicate his position to the group if he desired. I've had many occasions where I had to proceed visible in order to coordinate with the group, when it would have made a lot more sense ICly to stay hidden.

[Raona]

I'm not sure if the intention here was purely to start a conversation of the subject, but I could certainly get behind at least some flavor of this as a suggestion. Let me know if you would like this moved into suggestions.

As someone who doesn't play a rogue enough to know, though, please spell out what code does not currently let you do that you wish it would - like lead a group when hidden or automatically join in combat or what have you.

[Hrosskell]

It used to be possible to do multiple rogue groups because of discern; that was when the game hit a statistic peak with rogues about, even. I can remember Pakur and Graham and Travis all teaming up to do things and being able to communicate silently because of the Cant.

Finding a way to transfer all of that to your group would be nice, and I don't think it's unbalancing in the slightest considering the risk is way higher than magic mirror + tells. Having a thief/rogue/bard on the ground and able to convey things to his party while in hide without being discovered would be the single most flavorful, enjoyable enhancement to stealth classes that I can think of just now.

[Zorinar]

Raona,
As it works now, when you hide you hide from everyone. Your groupmates cannt see you nor enemies cannot see you (Assuming you passed the hide checks.) While hidden, you can follow people in your group and you will still autoassist in combat.

The problem that this brings up is that when you are in a group and you hide, your group has no idea you are there, they cannot talk with you, they cannot cast spells on you because they cannot see you. They dont know if you are still following them or if they lost you. You have to keep going visible or do something silly like "smote rustles some leaves in a bush" just to let them know you are still with them. Which is revealing your position, and a good RP thief will then become VIS. (Just like if you speak out loud.)

The rationale of my position is that:

Hide is working just as if you cast invisibility on yourself, but you are not really invisible. Hiding in shadows should let your groupmates know exactly where you are because you are hiding but still with them. They saw you hide, they know where you are hiding, but others that did not see you should still have to pass a spot check to see you.

Communication while hidden has always been a weird issue. You can use the amulet I guess, but thieves have silent talk that they should be able to use with each other. Of course, that would mean that they should be able to see each other in order to use it. Currently, thieves are hidden from each other even while in the same group. It just makes sense to me that they should be able to see each other if they are hiding and travelling together.

So in short, I guess if you could move this to suggestions that would be great. I seem to be not the only one that is in favor of this.

Thanks Raona!

I kind of like the config option myself that Nylo pointed out.

[Raona]

Right-o, thank you for the explanation, and I can readily see the logic in the idea!

Let's try to make it concrete, though. Let me see if I've got it down to brass tacks:

Have the spot/distraction check yield automatic success, or be bypassed, by group members; such that group members would automatically see hidden rogues who are members of their group. Optionally, provide a config option to let the rogue control whether or not this is the case.

Would that cover it? Should anything special happen when there are multiple rogues in the same room and they are not grouped?

[Nylo]

In the case of multiple ungrouped rogues, possibly a command as I mentioned above, to reveal yourself to one certain person? Other than that, the normal spot check should apply.

[Grenwyn]

I support this suggestion.

I think the config option will have a higher ROI than the command... the command would have a fairly limited utility for non-grouped rogues, because they would only be able to reveal themselves to either 1) characters who weren't hidden or 2) characters who were hidden, but were SPOTted.

In the case of #1, my thief at least (and probably others) would likely just step out of his hiding place if the coast were clear. And if it weren't, he'd be worried that the other character would inadvertently give his position away, so he'd be reluctant to show himself unless it were absolutely necessary.

#2 would likely happen only rarely, especially with higher-level (and more skilled) hiders.

The config option, on the other hand, I would set and leave on practically all the time. That would make for much cooler roleplay with groups of sneaks, as Zorinar mentioned.