Dwarves and magic and riding

Villis · Post by **Villis** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:53 pm

I've recently encountered a number of situations where I had thought I understood what was appropriate but then was duly chastised by one person or another for choices I've made with my dwarven character. Since I don't have convenient access to the resources listed in an earlier thread I was hoping for some input here.

The few questions I had:

- Dwarves and their interaction with magic. Noted in our help files is the following quote: "They have a deep distrust of magic beyond the kind which a magical axe might have." Here is where I ran into a conflict in my mind. My character's a priest, he has access to quite a number of spells. What I guess I'm wondering is, should I be playing the mindset that any spell or spell affect that my character isn't aware of his god granting is to be distrusted and avoided at all costs? I was recently scolded for using "arcane magic" and cursed for it, namely a potion of flying. I didn't realize that using a potion was looked poorly upon. I was under the impression that dwarves distrusted certain magics but obviously not all since they utilize it via clerics and in enchanting their wares, curing wounds, etc. Are potions in general taboo, or is it just potions that replicate non-clerical spells? From my perspective, I wouldn't know how to distinguish how the potion was imbued with its powers and it could be just as likely a god granted the potion the ability to grant its user flight, armor or whatever.

- Related to magic, the situation with potions got me wondering whether a dwarf would be allowed to enter a magical portal such as the ones popping up yesterday related to a quest. Technically speaking, the gates were "arcane" in nature, so does that preclude all dwarves from participating?

- It's noted that dwarves are between 4 foot 5 and 5 foot tall. Yet I was berated for riding a horse. I was being stupid and rode into a "dwelling" which I acknowledge was wrong. However, I did question the whole ability to ride a horse. Is it the general concensus that dwarves can't ride horses at all or just something of a racial preference not to? I don't have a problem adhering to the MUD's desired profile, I'm just having a problem finding out what that is without getting yelled at periodically.
** On a somewhat related note, if the decision is that I should be using say a pony or whatever, what is the accepted manner of correcting this situation. Or, is it a situation where I'm supposed to just use the horse as a pack animal and not be able to ride a mount at all.

People's input and assistance would be greatly appreciated because I honestly want to improve my roleplay, and not continue to get into trouble for things that I'd prefer to know before I get into the situations.

Thanks.

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:11 pm

Ahh, heres my perspective....dwarves distrust wizardly magic, they would distrust any magic coming from an unknown source to them. Potions and spells from their priests would be ok because they know where they are coming from. Even if I wasnt a dwarf I still wouldnt trust a potion if I didnt trust where I got it from or I couldnt tell what kind it was myself.

As for portals, I think they would be extremely reluctant to go in and dwarves can be stubborn as anything, and that can lead to some amazing RP. (i.e. Dwarf is so stubborn to go his friends have to pick him up and bodily heave him into the portal, all the while he curses their names and everything holy this side of Faerun)

Horses...dwarves dont like horses too much, or boats. They dont really like the fact that they are so high off their precious ground. Horses also arent very useful in the tunnels of their homes. Its just commonly a thing they havent liked, riding horses. Now, im sure its not impossible for your charry to ride a horse and I dont think anyone should tell a charry how to RP their charries. If you want to ride a horse, then fine, but RP it well. I always thought it would be funny if I saw a dwarf holding on for dear life when his mount goes crazy ( Oi, ye durned horse, SLOW DOOOOWWWWNNN!) and galopes away.

This stuff isnt set in stone I dont beleive, there are even a dwarven wizard or two (in fact I remember playing a game where the teacher of the charry was a dwarven wizzy). Just find your own way to RP your charry, and maybe someone else here can give their own perspective that could help you play.

Isaldur · Post by **Isaldur** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:16 pm

With the magic stuff, all I really have to say is it is your dwarf and if he is slightly different than the norm of most Shield Dwarves then that's your choice. He doesn't mind arcane magic that much? So he might get grumbled at by other Shield Dwarves, but even then they can't complain too much. Most northern dwarven territories all share some distinct ancient bloodline and have plenty of enemies to fight besides each other.

Then there's the Gold Dwarves in the Great Rift of the south, who never lost their touch with arcane magic.

Finally, there's the Thunder Blessing. I'm going to quote pieces directly from the Wizards of the Coast Site for this.

"In the Year of Thunder (1306 DR), the great god Moradin bestowed a new blessing upon his chosen people .... Whatever the source of the blessing, the birthrate among dwarves has soared until it is now nearly half as high as typical human rates of reproduction."

"The new generation of dwarven youth is commonly referred to as the "thunder children." In addition, nearly a fifth of dwarven births after the Thundering have resulted in identical or fraternal twins. The new generation of dwarves tends not to share the fear and distrust of arcane magic possessed by their parents and ancestors. Most dwarves still feel more comfortable wielding an axe instead of a wand, but many thunder children, particularly the twins, have taken to studying wizardry or developed sorcerer abilities. In the past few years these thunder children have come of age, and dwarves are once again a common sight in the Realms, with many young stout folk leaving their homes in groups of a hundred or more to found new clans in hills unclaimed by other dwarves. Others have chosen to wander the world, seeking glory and showing others the advantage of dwarven skill and prowess."

[EDIT] Did a little research on just how old a thunder child who does not dislike magic compared to the FK timeline of Cyric having not blown up Zhentil Keep yet. Zhentil Keep gets "destroyed" in 1368 DR, and the Thunder Blessing starts in 1307 DR (1306 according to FrCS). That's 61-62 years for newer dwarves to not disdain arcane magic so much, but that still doesn't mean the older dwarves like it or won't grumble about new youth.

Finally, this post is not to argue any point with the administration of Forgotten Kingdoms. Ultimately it is their choice on how they want to incorporate any of this information, I'm just putting it out on the table.

Villis · Post by **Villis** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:44 pm

Fair enough. I appreciate the feedback and I think now that I understand the perspectives it helps understand why I've gotten the reactions I have. I will try my best to conform more, because that was what I was hoping to do... I was just having a hard time figuring it out.

Hopefully with a little more thought on my behalf I will not make quite so many mistakes in the future and solidify my character's roleplay. Plus, having this topic available for other dwarven RPers to see might help eliminate similar displays by other PCs.

Thanks again!

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 5:17 am

(Sorry for the late post, been busy)
Dwarves....wizard magics... always a touchy area. I know and agree with the general ideals of the distrust and avoiding of wizard magics unless in the extrememe of situations, saving a friend's life being a good example. But.... I try to consider the source of the wizard magic as well. I try to rp my dwarf's reactions to magic based on his knowledge of the spell and the caster. Yes, he has a universal distrust of magics as other dwarves do, but he also trusts the friends he has made during his travels. If a long term wizard friend offers a 'bulls strength' spell to assist him in carrying his newest load of ores and gems, I would be inclined to consider the offer in a more favorable light than some wandering wizard offering their services. Still in most cases he would likely decline most spells, but a helpful offer from a friend would at least be given thought to before declined. Just a perspective of a dwarf character, take it as it is... Enjoy,

N.R.

Legault · Post by **Legault** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:55 am

so, should we send in an application for a dwarf that dosent mind riding on a boat, swiming, magic, or riding? Because my dwarf violates all of those rules.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:52 pm

Legault wrote:so, should we send in an application for a dwarf that dosent mind riding on a boat, swiming, magic, or riding? Because my dwarf violates all of those rules.

I believe a special RP app is something you typically do to get permission, not forgiveness.

It also does not excuse continued RP while waiting for an app approval, as I have witnesses serious consequenses arise from a char doing their own RP thing regardless, not yet having approval to do so.

While I personally could see no problem with a dwarf being ok with ONE of the things dwarves in general don't like (like riding a mount, though you could pick a quirky mount, or a rare maritime dwarf who likes the sea), to have no discomfort or remorse doing any of these things just breaks the mold Sharni states earlier in the thread that she wants in the RP of a dwarf. It's one of those uncoded limitations that you're just supposed to RP.

This doesn't mean that dwarves can't fly (an a rare occaision), but I have seen very colorful, very humorous reactions from dwarves having fly spells cast on them and throughout the duration of the spell that just add to the richness in an RP. Hang out with and watch some of the really seasoned old school dwarves play, and emulate.

My advice would be shift your RP now, and count on it being permanent unless IMMs or Sharni tell you otherwise. The DM wants traditional 2nd edition shield dwarves, which is why they restrict it to experienced players, why they invested so much time in a accent translator for dwarves, et al and lay out specific attitudes and such they want from dwarves in general. DM's wishes trump player intentions.

Versayir · Post by **Versayir** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:41 pm

I'd have to go to my bookshelf to be certain about the name, but I believe Lady Alustriel has a dwarven scribe assistant who breaks nearly every dwarven stereotype in existance. A precedent in FR fiction for dwarves not of the common mold.

So, they do exist but just aren't extremely common. Of course, D&D novels (and fantasy literature in general) tends to make dwarves very two dimensional and cliched characters - Gruff thumpers with ale and axes who distrust outsiders but really have a heart of gold. Any kind of variation on a much used stereotype tends to refresh things greatly.

That being said, I'm a big fan of the policy of limiting abnormal roleplay to approved applications. A game full of fine-talking, nature-loving 'short humans' would grow stale as quickly as a horde of do-gooding Drizzt wannabe drow would.

There must be some kind of middle ground though, one would imagine, and that's what I believe the original poster is looking for. A way to give their dwarven character some real character beyond the cookie-cutter without pushing the boundary past the point of controversy or the 'must apply for this' point.

Perhaps a greater elboration of the grey areas and flexibilities that can be explored in roleplay from some of the more experienced dwarf players would help?

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:32 am

Flet I think his name is, or something similar to that..

Villis · Post by **Villis** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:44 pm

In defense of myself (being the original poster), at the time I was fairly ignorant of how strict a view on dwarves there was. Forgotten Kingdoms in many ways is very unique in that respect (which gives it an amount of credibility for that particularness) but also can be something of an adjustment to those of us who have experienced a wide range of MUDs out there with less enforced guidelines.

My own original point was trying to determine that ideal I was trying to fit my character along side. Was I trying to test those limits at the time? .. not really. Having done a fair amount of novel reading, I either didn't get the same impression regarding magic and water, overlooked it, or chose not to recognize it in either the writing or campaign setting materials. I was just plugging away, not being as conscious of RP. More than likely, more interested in experiencing the different places, skills, etc. In any case, now I understand the Imms perspective and what they want for dwarves on FK - which helps a lot in trying to get along and adhere to those wishes. I've done my best to do so during the time I get to be online.

Thanks for the feedback!

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:57 pm

Be yourself, but be a dwarf first.

Enjoy,
N.R.

Talamar · Post by **Talamar** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:13 pm

The dwarf's name was Fretigar, Fret for short.

And he was atypical in that he was a tidy, and scholarly dwarf. He still disliked riding, but did it as he'd devoted himself to Alustriel. He didn't like it though. He also disliked magic, but didn't mind others using it, which is within the dwarven stereotype.

Leohand · Post by **Leohand** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:37 pm

Personally, I role-play a dwarf that can't stand boats and doesn't trust magic that isn't divine. He does, however, trust one wizard,but that's another story. for the most part he will only trust divine magic. The place where he differs from many dwarve, besides his height and weight, which are on the upper end of the scale, is that he likes riding. His additude is let the beasties carry me to where I'll do my killing, so I can kill for longer. I'm also reasonable with the choice of mounts. Truth is, a pony, which is normal for dwarves, wouldn't realistically be able to carry him, his armor, and his gear, even if the code might say that's okay, so he rides a normal horse. Now, most dwarves don't ride unless they have to, and some will. I don't really think riding is a taboo or anything, you just have to be practical where you go.

Edit: I just thought I'd add that if each grid square outside of was cities is 30x30 miles, then the shortest possible distance to Howling Peaks from waterdeep is 319.70562 miles. Hense a pony couldn't carry all that weight so far.

Moradin · Post by **Moradin** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:58 pm

Expect IC consequences of deviating from the 'norm' for dwarves in this setting. These will range from a raised eyebrow through a finger tapped against the side of their head to an anvil falling from the sky and mashing you into small granules.

Leohand · Post by **Leohand** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:28 pm

He's nearly 5 feet tall, lol, he wears heavy armor, and has the highest non-magically enhanced strength possible. So I reckon with all his gear he's a 400 pound load, you know? I mean, my dwarf is like 7 inches taller then one of my elves, lol. I'd pitty the poor pony that has to carry him. And thenthere's the saddlebags to worry about. I just think that for me it's better to roleplay a little grumbling and struggling to get on a larger horse then trying to explain how a little pony can carry several times it's own weight. for hundred of miles without a break. Well, my dwarf is high enough in level now, that for most little trips he doesn't need to ride, but he does ride when he has farther to go, like Friendly Arm or Berdusk.

Belose · Post by **Belose** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:33 am

ok, this stuff just makes me mad. Braeck has a pony... and he swims. Why, you ask? It's not dwarven... but he figured a fighter might need to do many distateful things, especially if ordered to because it was needful. He didn't enjoy it, but he did it. So I guess he's a twink. He leveled fast..he was a fighter, couldn't find a lot of people on late, so he learned all he could of weaponcraft because he's a fighter. Hasn't grand mastered anything that he didn't get as a dwarf because people don't want him twinking. Hasn't learned as much about mining and smelting, because mainly he likes to fight...keeps getting bored just tapping at the walls. But he realized it was the best way to get metal and to make the weapons and armour he wants..but NOOOO he's a twink! I made a special application for Braeck to be mute because I didn't know he'd need it, but it was accepted with the limited background behind it... why is he mute? I had a real tough time trying to talk like they were supposed to. Then they had the dwarven accent program. God I loved that.. now he's gotten used to mindspeaking to avoid talking, people are de-tuniing, but he'll live with that... Braeck finally has more hours online than Belose.. never thought it would happen, but he passed 500 hours. For various reasons, Belose won't be seen much anymore, the only reason I played him again was the new spell system and other changes made me give him a chance. But still, I have a lot of other alts I play, and I made those because I wanted to see what other classes and races might be like. But one of them is a halfelf and has aged 20 years simply because I don't have the time to get on as much and still spread it among the others. And then I have to read how everyone wants to limit things, or make them more life like. I came to play to have fun and do things less life like. Like Mele said I wish more people would quit worrying about everyone else's character and just concentrate on playing their own, THEIR way. Sorry about the rambling, but I needed to say it. So I guess I was just wondering, do I kill Braeck off? Or do I need to get rid of my pony? By the way, the pony spends more time as my storage for all my weapons than as a mount.... Braeck mostly walks!

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:02 am

I doubt that in any case of having to kill off a character. Everything that is ever strayed from RP wise can be fixed with RP. Like the riding, if its ruled upon and enforced that no dwarf shall ride any mount then roleplay falling off and swearing to never ride again.

The common misconception with twinking and leveling is that if you put some effort to roleplay into it then its not twinking. An example, My gnome could walk into a room with a wyvern and code wise kill it. Now lets think about that. Hmm a tiny gnome against a fierce dragon.. not gunna happen. So think about where you train and ask would my character really go here?

Another example of, to me, poor choosing in leveling areas is the friendly arm inn, If you resent any form of helping anyone especially humans and gnomes, why are you saving an inn from attacking forces?

Now I hope my examples aren't taken as an attack at any characters. I for one am guilty of all of the above but I have learned through my years of playing here to think IC and not OOC.

Training skills and trades to me is defining your character not twinking. If a dwarf chooses to mine and smelt all the time they are RP that, that is what their character enjoys in life. If they like to fight, well they are honing their skills for the one day to prove to their deity or clan that they are needed in times of distress. Just do more than type kill mob, smote a few things, dont just bury the corpse afterwards, smote out a prayer.

And remember most dwarves are stubborn when it comes to weave magic and riding animals. If your dwarf isnt, then power to you, just remember to ask the concerned parties for permission, since if one person sees you playing like that and thinks its ok then they might RP like that and then we have another Drizzt problem now with dwarves.

Birgit · Post by **Birgit** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:41 am

Let's perhaps focus on the subject in this thread rather than join it up with the debate around levelling and the notion of twinking.

To play a dwarf that rides swims or flies is not prohibited. To play a dwarf that likes mining or smithing is not a requirement. It is, however, out of character (and I use that in it's true sense rather than in terms of IC/OOC) for the dwarves in this setting. There's also the thought that going away from these norms will leave you a lot less dwarven traits left to characterise yourself with, but that's just my opinion.

The game owners have a particular view on how they feel dwarves should be played and this is reflected in the preceding posts. Having certain expectations of how dwarves behave and act is what prevents the 'short human' syndrome. No-one has indicated that someone roleplaying outside those norms should delete or be punished though

If you roleplay unusual traits and accept the IC consequences - such as being looked at askance by your peers and perhaps being slightly looked down upon too - then you are unlikely to be chastised OOCly.

The problem comes when characters roleplay not worrying about magic because it means they can be spelled up by their arcane friends. Or they roleplay having no fear of riding solely because it allows them to move around more quickly. Or they a lack of fear of boats or swimming because otherwise they can't get to those quests out on the Moonshaes or a trainer in the Moonsea. That is where any notion of 'twinking' comes in.

My very first character on FK was a dwarf and I still play that one periodically. He is no less a dwarf than Birgit - Moradin, clan and Hall are all that matter to him - but in terms of ideology he is poles apart from her. She is an arch-conservative, bound by traditions where he is driven to use whatever means he sees fit to safeguard his people.

Why is that relevant?

Well, because of the two... Birgit is the one to have been taken to task by Feindra for being scandalous and undwarflike.

With consistent well-thought out roleplay it is not impossible to have a dwarf behave unlike the norm. Though I would suggest you pick only one trait to go native with. (A riding, swimming, magic using dwarf is a gnome after all.

) Just don't take offence if a player or NPC reacts to your roleplay because their character is more conservative - that is your IC consequence.

Leohand · Post by **Leohand** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:45 pm

I actually have two dwarves, one that wont swim, wont touch boats, but that will, when it's truely necessary, ride, but most of the time he doesn't, he finds it distateful to tavel on something other then his own two feet.

Now, my other dwarf wont ride, wont step foot on a boat, and won't swim, and neither of these dwarves particularly trust wizardly magics. The second one, however, keeps some potions in his spellpouch. Now, he's not likely to ever use them, because his personality is he'll only use them if he really has no other choice. And since he'd rather die then use them, the only thing that might get him to use them is hearing, say, that Mithril Hall is in danger of a drow attacks

Absolutely necessary, to him, is defined as being able to protect his homeland. Nothing short of this will make him use wizard potions. But, he'll collect the potions for just such a possibility. All of this was worked out in character, but I just thought I'd state my part here. Purely conservative dwarves are alright, but to me it's funner to play one that's a bit different, one little detail that isn't normal, that most people don't even realize. That is just my opinion though.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:58 pm

Dwarves mounting horses (or ponies or warboars or four-legged magically animated mugs of beer) when necessary is fine, in my opinion. As long as mounting does not become so common that it's an unremarkable event in the roleplay.

Dwarves asking wizards to spell them up or using arcane magic can be fine, in my opinion. As long as this does not become so common that it's an unremarkable event in the roleplay.

Dwarves are still dwarves. They are not simply small-statured, mostly bearded, humans. Humans are very versatile. They don't have any kind of racial prejudices or characteristics. Most of the other races do though, and they should not be ignored. They might be toned down by a character's particular roleplay, but those specificities should not completely wiped out of the character's behaviour.

Two concrete examples ...

A dwarf mounting a pony to journey with a horse-mounted party is fine. Use this as an opportunity to make him grumble and whatnot (see the Gimli reference posted by Sharni above). A dwarf who always travel on a mount, who does that so often that it becomes common and unremarkable, misses on an opportunity to distinguish himself as a dwarf (and not just a small-sized human).

A dwarf using a gate created by a wizard to reach a far-away place quickly because someone needs help there, is fine. A dwarf who makes a habit out of asking "Hey, El, make me fly" each time he wants to journey to Zazesspur or stock up on plenty of arcane potions, is NOT fine though. That's a typical small bearded human (and a twink in my opinion, because he wants to do things fast, more efficiently, no matter whether efficiency comes at the cost of ICness or roleplay consistency).

As in most things, it's a matter of nuance. Making your dwarf special because he has less than a problem than most dwarves with magic, or boats, or mounting, or flying, or elves, is fine. Completely ignoring the dwarven racial specificities because they might come in the way of efficiency in (skill-)leveling up, is not fine though.

Belose wrote:now he's gotten used to mindspeaking to avoid talking, people are de-tuniing, but he'll live with that...

As a side note, unless I'm mistaken, detuning is not possible anymore.