[Skill] Bash - Reviewing DC
[Skill] Bash - Reviewing DC
DC for someone to fail their save for bash seems astoundingly low. It seems is a requirement to hit, naturally, then a requirement for them to save their DC but even low-level NPCs only fail rarely. Can we have some transparency on what contributes to this DC number? Or if it is modified by anything at all? It feels like they can only fail if they roll a 1.
"Some of us try hard to make the world a better place than it was when we found it. I know that's what I try to do. I won't always be successful, but that's life."
~Kara Zor-El
~Kara Zor-El
Re: [Skill] Bash - Reviewing DC
To clarify, are you saying you think it is too easy to bash or too hard?
Tempus does not win battles - Tempus helps the deserving warrior win battles.
Re: [Skill] Bash - Reviewing DC
Too hard to bash. Or, too easy to make the save against whatever check bash causes. All targets, from rats to corbies, succeed against bashes FAR more often than they fail.
"Some of us try hard to make the world a better place than it was when we found it. I know that's what I try to do. I won't always be successful, but that's life."
~Kara Zor-El
~Kara Zor-El
Re: [Skill] Bash - Reviewing DC
This is a very old discussion. People were once discussing if bash were too potent and should be removed from the game.
There are a few controls now on bash. One example is size, there is a penalty applied if you try to bash something larger than yourself and a bonus in some cases if the thing is much smaller than you. You also must have a shield (this was not original) and there are some things you cannot bash (they are flagged and you are notified if this is the case).
In short, yes it is hard to bash but you can also take 50% of a dragon's health when you land one...
There are a few controls now on bash. One example is size, there is a penalty applied if you try to bash something larger than yourself and a bonus in some cases if the thing is much smaller than you. You also must have a shield (this was not original) and there are some things you cannot bash (they are flagged and you are notified if this is the case).
In short, yes it is hard to bash but you can also take 50% of a dragon's health when you land one...
Tempus does not win battles - Tempus helps the deserving warrior win battles.
Re: [Skill] Bash - Reviewing DC
I think the 'it is overpowered' concerns were from an era when you could bash every round or two without losing your rounds of combat, like disarm and punch. I think disarm remains useful, but with its failure rate bash seems not to be. If you don't think it needs to be revisited that's fine. I just expected to have better success as I got better at the skill and that hasn't been the experience so far.
"Some of us try hard to make the world a better place than it was when we found it. I know that's what I try to do. I won't always be successful, but that's life."
~Kara Zor-El
~Kara Zor-El
Re: [Skill] Bash - Reviewing DC
When bash was nerfed people said things like, "wow, people are finally using disarm now." In the end, bash is a very powerful gamble. I realize it's a challenge to train, but I believe it also adds a little gamesmanship to combat as opposed to giving fighters a way to basically destroy every other class.
Tempus does not win battles - Tempus helps the deserving warrior win battles.
Re: [Skill] Bash - Reviewing DC
I don't think the DC needs to be scaled to anywhere near as powerful as the dozen different ways clerics and wizards can stun a character, but it seeming to only work when the enemy rolls a 1 (which it really feels like it's at right now) when at Master just seems like the effort goes nowhere and the odds of the 'gamble' are just leaning too far against it. It's not a significant concern or anything, I just thought it would just be nice to see fighters do something /other/ than disarm now and again.
"Some of us try hard to make the world a better place than it was when we found it. I know that's what I try to do. I won't always be successful, but that's life."
~Kara Zor-El
~Kara Zor-El
Re: [Skill] Bash - Reviewing DC
The utility that bash can yield is affixed to the conditions table here on FK - especially, but not limited to, being prone, stunned, held, dazed, entangled and helpless. All given conditions are flagged to subject the target to a full round of coup de grace-esque melee and ranged attacks. Guaranteed hits and criticals. These potent conditions can be achieved through a number of spells and prayers and not just this one warrior maneuver.
Bash on FK loosely mimics an SRD overrun https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Overrun by first inviting an attack of opportunity because you enter the target's occupied space; then rolling against the target's touch AC(I believe.. Would welcome clarification), if the target fails the roll they must make a contested roll based on strength or dexterity, size and stability against the contender (you) - think surefootedness of a horse vs human for stability. If the target again fails its rolls against the aggressor, they will then be damaged - I believe d6 for heavy and d4 for light shield - and its condition set to 'dazed' via the helpfile. On FK there is no chance at being countered, the roles reversing and potentially being dazed yourself. I dislike that lack of possibility because bashing/overruning is a less finessable and higher risk than other maneuvers.
Improved bash on FK removes the AoO and that's it. While there is no improved overrun feat on FK, but SRD has it as granting a flat +4 and that the target cannot avoid you. For comparison, improved disarm on FK grants the +4, no attack of opportunity and eliminates the chance at a counter disarm.
For what it's worth, the trample feat hasn't been worthwhile. High skill level and a large, above-average mount doesn't yield a worthy result. Abysmal, actually, but the result would be overkill against the NPCs that are susceptible to being bashed. Against targets like the mentioned dragon.. I don't even think rolling a 1 for the dragon would be enough to sway the numbers. Besides, you can't bash two sizes above your own, right? Targets can still avoid 'your' bash altogether as opposed to being unable because of the feat's benefits. Mounted combat was more notable back in the day with 'spirited charge' being in-game. Nowadays the entire line of mounted feats are taken by those that seem to regret them later on. So guilty.
[*]Condition table needs to be looked at. That would tweak a lot of the interactions of PvE, imo for the better and tone down a few well-known trouble spells while opening up for the use of other spells that can apply their correct conditions.
[*]Formula for FK's Bash should include a counter check. The skill check should be integral to the likelihood of success, but as it is now, the action succeeds far too rarely.
[*]Improved Bash feat should grant +4 to your roll and no chance for the target to avoid the skill. Counter still possible.
[*]Trample feat be as the action of the mount and no chance for the target to avoid. You do not need a shield whilst on horseback to overrun someone. As it is the action of the mount, the PC would be able to take other actions or simply just be able to attack with a weapon.
Bash on FK loosely mimics an SRD overrun https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Overrun by first inviting an attack of opportunity because you enter the target's occupied space; then rolling against the target's touch AC(I believe.. Would welcome clarification), if the target fails the roll they must make a contested roll based on strength or dexterity, size and stability against the contender (you) - think surefootedness of a horse vs human for stability. If the target again fails its rolls against the aggressor, they will then be damaged - I believe d6 for heavy and d4 for light shield - and its condition set to 'dazed' via the helpfile. On FK there is no chance at being countered, the roles reversing and potentially being dazed yourself. I dislike that lack of possibility because bashing/overruning is a less finessable and higher risk than other maneuvers.
Improved bash on FK removes the AoO and that's it. While there is no improved overrun feat on FK, but SRD has it as granting a flat +4 and that the target cannot avoid you. For comparison, improved disarm on FK grants the +4, no attack of opportunity and eliminates the chance at a counter disarm.
For what it's worth, the trample feat hasn't been worthwhile. High skill level and a large, above-average mount doesn't yield a worthy result. Abysmal, actually, but the result would be overkill against the NPCs that are susceptible to being bashed. Against targets like the mentioned dragon.. I don't even think rolling a 1 for the dragon would be enough to sway the numbers. Besides, you can't bash two sizes above your own, right? Targets can still avoid 'your' bash altogether as opposed to being unable because of the feat's benefits. Mounted combat was more notable back in the day with 'spirited charge' being in-game. Nowadays the entire line of mounted feats are taken by those that seem to regret them later on. So guilty.
[*]Condition table needs to be looked at. That would tweak a lot of the interactions of PvE, imo for the better and tone down a few well-known trouble spells while opening up for the use of other spells that can apply their correct conditions.
[*]Formula for FK's Bash should include a counter check. The skill check should be integral to the likelihood of success, but as it is now, the action succeeds far too rarely.
[*]Improved Bash feat should grant +4 to your roll and no chance for the target to avoid the skill. Counter still possible.
[*]Trample feat be as the action of the mount and no chance for the target to avoid. You do not need a shield whilst on horseback to overrun someone. As it is the action of the mount, the PC would be able to take other actions or simply just be able to attack with a weapon.