supplicate resurrection

Scylere · Post by **Scylere** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:02 pm

I recently had a couple of characters use supplicate resurrection to return from the dead. A loss of experience occurred, yet the help file for resurrection says there is no loss of experience.

If this is true resurrection, should there be a loss of experience?

Maybel · Post by **Maybel** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:25 pm

Well this might be better off in the bug forum...

This could have happened because it was a supplication for resurrection and should be seperate from the actual prayer of resurrection. The prayer of resurrection does not have the penalty of loss of exp...

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:52 pm

Actually, I think this is fine.

Supplicate resurrection is one of the "no roleplay" option (that is, an option without any interaction with a PC or a deity), and thus should in no way be a "good" solution to death.

Best solutions:
- roleplay with a high-level PC priest and have resurrection cast for you
- roleplay with a deity and have them resurrect you

Good solution:
- roleplay with PC priest and have raise dead cast for you

Acceptable solution:
- roleplay with a PC and have them bring your corpse to an NPC mob (I qualify it only as an "acceptable" and not "good" solution because, in 99% of the cases, there is next to no roleplay here, and all the player cares about is to get his belongings back as soon as possible)

Terrible solution:
- reincarnate

Scylere · Post by **Scylere** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:15 pm

Respectively, Dalvyn, I have to disagree with a few things.

In some cases, the options of a PC priest or a deity can be unavailable.

Supplicate Resurrection is not a "no-rp option", because gaining favour definitely takes a lot of rp.

Why should there be a cost of experience to Supplicate Resurrection? Isn't a supplication a gift from a god? Isn't it in the definition of Resurrection that there is no experience loss? My god "loved" me so much, gave me so much favour, that he felt I should suffer as I was returned?

Having a PC drag someone's body to a mob to get it raised is a good solution to the situation. Sometimes it takes a lot more rp for a non-priest PC to get someone raised through a mob than it does for a priest PC to raise a character.

99% is an exaggeration. For instance, my character lost his body and everything he owned, because the player who had his body died - this happened before I supplicated.

Just a few concluding comments:
I understand that the BEST solution is to look to engage in PC/IMM roleplay, but sometimes it just may not happen and that's ok.

Most of us aren't out here to take advantage of the system or the imms. Maybe some trust could be given to those that are at the mercy of the immortals.

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:57 pm

A few thoughts...

Supplicate Resurrection is not a "no-rp option", because gaining favour definitely takes a lot of rp.

Gaining favour solely by the blessings of your deity and/or church superiors is so rare as to be unheard of. If we were truly omniscient and able to be in more than one place at once this might not be the case, but in real terms favour is mostly gained by coded actions.

Gaining coded favour does not lend itself to roleplay, save for a few smotes or an alias for burying, sacrificing or offering a victory over a foe to your deity. Gaining favour means those hundreds of repetitions until your favour reaches the desired title. Hence, supplicating resurrection is not what I would call a roleplay choice.

Isn't it in the definition of Resurrection that there is no experience loss?

Okay, so we don't always immediately get around to updating all the help files with every code change or amendment that's made. That would probably be because Imms, coders, builders and PC members try to spend as much time as possible enhancing the game world and making it more fun.

Why should there be a cost of experience to Supplicate Resurrection? Isn't a supplication a gift from a god? ... My god "loved" me so much, gave me so much favour, that he felt I should suffer as I was returned?

Let's try that boot on the other foot for a minute or two... why are we using an IC situation to argue something which is mostly an OOC loss. And if it IS a gift from your God, why are you questioning what strings that gift is wrapped in?

99% is an exaggeration. For instance, my character lost his body and everything he owned, because the player who had his body died - this happened before I supplicated.

Two things here:
firstly, if you were already aware that your former self was lost to you, there was absolutely no reason not to wait for an Imm or PC priest or any other roleplay option rather than supplicating.
secondly, and forgive me if I'm blunt but this is not the first instance of this, I think it's more than a little cheap to even think about mentioning the circumstances of why your character's body was not available let alone post it on this forum.

Most of us aren't out here to take advantage of the system or the imms. Maybe some trust could be given to those that are at the mercy of the immortals.

I don't think I saw anything in Dalvyn's post to indicate that any of us felt folk were trying to take advantage of supplicate resurrection. It's a lazy option and it comes with consequences, as does reincarnate...

And finally, I'm not sure I follow your last point, are you suggesting that being dead leaves you at the whim of the Immortals (this, despite all the other options Dalvyn listed) or was there some other reference their that I missed?

Scylere · Post by **Scylere** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:30 pm

My point is that can't we players make some decision as to what's good rp or a good rp solution to a situation?

EDIT:
Let me add something to this.
Don't we have the discernment to decide if a situation has had enough and/or appropriate roleplay, especially since the imms aren't omniscient?

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:43 pm

I'm all for PC resurrection, the big problem, as I know of, is that there are few PC priests *with* resurrection as a known spell. If we want to foster more IC RP resurrections, could we make trainers for the spell a little more plentiful? Now that the spell lists for priests is as it should be, and all faiths have the base cleric spells, IC access to trainers for all faiths would be nice.

Seeing as tabletop priests just automatically get their spells as they increase in level, I don't think it's an unbalancing request to have the highest level healing/restoration spells easy to find for priests, since that *is* their primary function in a party situation is healer and defender.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:56 pm

There are several priests who know resurrection, and can scribe it for others to learn.

I'm also hoping that all the teaching system will be fixed/modified soon so that this is another option.

Learning from another PC is way way more cool than just typing "train" in front of a mob I would hope.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:40 pm

Before the spell system was revamped, only priests of Torm, Lathander, and Illmater had access to the resurrection spell. I would assume that, unless some trainers have been added to other temples in the realms that do not belong to one of those three deities, they are the only faiths with the spell still.

So would you propose a cleric of an evil deity ask a priest of the above mentioned faiths to give him a scroll to learn it from, or even better, have him teach it?

Since we do have policies about things being IC here, not learning from temples that are inappropriate for a follower of a particular faith, etc, seems it would extend to PC to PC interaction as well, yes?

As far as learning from a PC vs. learning from a trainer, if I was a wizard I'd accept that, for a priest that has to deal with matters of faith and alignment and dogma when it comes to player vs. player interaction, all I see is the formula to keep it a chosen few "special" faiths having all the powerful base cleric spells, and it doesn't do anything to help foster RP resurrection/restoration rather than heading to the fast food healer.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:04 pm

Kregor wrote:Before the spell system was revamped, only priests of Torm, Lathander, and Illmater had access to the resurrection spell. I would assume that, unless some trainers have been added to other temples in the realms that do not belong to one of those three deities, they are the only faiths with the spell still.

You assume wrongly.

So would you propose a cleric of an evil deity ask a priest of the above mentioned faiths to give him a scroll to learn it from, or even better, have him teach it?

No, but a cleric of an evil deity could for example mandate an in-between character to try and trick a good cleric into making a scroll of resurrection. That would be 3 people instead of 2 included in the roleplay. Or steal one from a good character, and so on.

As far as learning from a PC vs. learning from a trainer, if I was a wizard I'd accept that, for a priest that has to deal with matters of faith and alignment and dogma when it comes to player vs. player interaction, all I see is the formula to keep it a chosen few "special" faiths having all the powerful base cleric spells, and it doesn't do anything to help foster RP resurrection/restoration rather than heading to the fast food healer.

Priests have to learn their spells. They - and other spellcasters - also have to train it. Those are two things that hold in FK but not in DnD. I would be glad to do away with both of those, and you know it. Yet, the current situation is that priests still have to learn their spells and that spellcasters still have to train their spells to make them effective, so we can only deal with it.

As for wanting to keep a few "special" faiths as the only ones with access to "powerful spells", that is an unfounded remark of the kind that unneededly generates resentment. I - or anyone - have no reason to keep powerful spells in a select few faiths only.

Scylere · Post by **Scylere** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:23 pm

Priests can learn spells from scrolls?

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:05 pm

They can, yes. If the mud does not let them do so, then it's a bug.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:14 am

Dalvyn wrote:As for wanting to keep a few "special" faiths as the only ones with access to "powerful spells", that is an unfounded remark of the kind that unneededly generates resentment. I - or anyone - have no reason to keep powerful spells in a select few faiths only.

It wasn't a statement of intent, it was a statement of consequence... I don't think there is some plot to keep the spells out of some faith's hands, it's just a natural result in the process of trying to normalize after so many years of the approach both you and I criticized, of making base cleric spells "proprietary" to certain faiths in order to better distinguish them... That part of the equation has been remedied by fixing the spell lists. Every faith CAN learn them, it's just a matter of the getting.

This leads to digress to another event that makes it difficult to learn through RP means... those who have spells to share, can't necessarily scribe. Now, I'm not good enough at scribe to teach it, and the other casters can't find a trainer to scribe to share, so we're all spinning our wheels when it comes to this means of sharing spells RPly. Finding a GM scriber is also not a common occurence.

As I said... it's not a statement of intent, it's a statement of consequence... I've spoken out more than once in favor of amending the teach command to let those less than GM be able to teach a skill. Let's do it.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:35 am

Alright, I misunderstood what you meant. Sorry then.

As for reviewing the teaching system, yes, I'm all for it. I think it can be an incredible source of interaction and roleplay.

Scylere · Post by **Scylere** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:07 pm

I'd be all for increasing the teaching rps! I think most mobs can teach a spell at least up to amateur. Could pcs too?

I've played in some teaching rps and they are the best. I wish we'd have more of that, especially within the faith systems too - High Priests, Faith Managers, etc. It's a fun rp!