Paladins - The Rare Breed

[Solaghar]

I definitely appreciate all of the work Kelemvor puts into running Paladin lessons and helping people, but I think it might be appropriate to take a realistic look at this class and appraise how they're brought into the game and the long-term RP they're forced to go through to attain the status.

I've never taken a paladin lesson, never had a squire, never had anyone say they dislike the lessons or complain to me about them, I'm speaking merely as someone who is saddened by the sore lack of Paladins. I could not name a Paladin who has actively played the game since Andreas. I can not name someone (though I know a few must exist) who has attained the status of Paladin in the entire time I've played here. I am not pointing an accusing finger, but I don't think this can merely be blamed upon disinterest of the candidates. I think that the RP and time requirement might simply be too much.

What would be the primary reason to not move to a system more like the Ranger Council, though obviously more strict and subject to greater control. One finds an older Paladin on the council willing to train. A token is granted which gives access to the squire guild and the squire lessons. A few tokens to be doled out over time perhaps, so as to keep it from progressing too quickly, but I don't think a month or 100 hours of RP is an unreasonable requirement when no other class but Rangers requires any outlay at all. When I think that of all the squires I know, Raona for example is a character who is more than 2 years old, and has, I presume, been a squire for the vast majority of that time. If someone like Raona isn't fit to be a Paladin, I'm not exactly sure who is, or what qualities a candidate should have after all of that time.

I'm by no means suggesting admins are actively against paladins or have dropped the ball. This is not a matter of blame. I merely think that this is an old FK policy and it could use reappraisal. Again I note that Kelemvor has put a ton of time and effort into teaching Paladins, and that is really great. Discussion on the topic will not be harmful, and if there are specific reasons why the game is better served by the current state of affairs, then that is that. But I would far prefer (and think it would benefit the game) that Paladins did exist in the game and every once in a while that a Paladin had to be expelled from the order for misbehavior than to set the bar and requirements so high that most people never even seem to bother.

[Kelemvor]

The current situation regarding paladins is as follows;

There are five paladin teachers within the game, however only two of them have logged and given lessons in recent months. The bulk of the hopeful paladins continue to be dealt with by myself or Sir Feinn of Mystra.

There are twelve squires at varying stages in the lesson process, one who has completed all the lessons but whom is waiting to be knighted.

There are four pages waiting to commence lessons and there are two applications which are on hold waiting the characters to be faithed or meet other starting criteria.

Of these eighteen hopeful paladins, only a handful (and a thumbless, lost a pinkie hand it is too ) have logged recently themselves - despite many of them having been very active on their main characters.

Whilst I appreciate that timezone differences and arranging lessons have been a major problem, if the hopefuls are not logging in at all they have next to no chance of my picking them up on the fly.

With all this in mind, I am happy to see a discussion around the way we might improve the situation.

Tokens from older paladins might be a possibility, but that would rely upon there being sufficient older paladins around the place.

Something I contemplated a few months back was to invite a few experienced roleplayers - those without other characters burdened by in-game IC responsibilities - to create a paladin character that could be 'fast tracked' through to the point at which they were able to give lessons.

Sir Feinn's player is restricted in his log-in and has several other FM and online duties. I am, of course, terribly overworked also .
The key to more paladins remains, though, active and well-played characters to guide and instruct new hopefuls.

[Selveem]

I have to agree that there does need to be some other way to do this.

My greatest problem in this area is I don't want to see 'weak' Paladins. By weak, I don't just mean code-wise the characters aren't above at least level 20, but I mean RP-wise.

Paladins are supposed to be the shining symbol of light. There are those who have fallen in the past, surely, but those aren't what FK even allows. With these constraints, I believe it significantly cuts down on those looking for said type of RP.

I am all for fast-tracking more than just two players. I know a good number of great roleplayers who would be more than good enough to 'finish early.'

The aforementioned Raona I have always enjoyed roleplaying with - on more than one character. The character has always had a certain Charisma to her that even my spoiled, arrogant, little noble couldn't even raise his nose at.

[Dalvyn]

The more you (role)play your hopeful paladins, the more likely you are to be taken for a lesson.

Would-be paladins who log in only for the lessons miss the mark.

[Kelemvor]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. It would not take months to get to being a paladin if the character was played consistently. Even absent myself and Sir Feinn, other Imms would happily step in if they were impressed by what they saw.

[Selveem]

The more you (role)play your hopeful paladins, the more likely you are to be taken for a lesson.

Would-be paladins who log in only for the lessons miss the mark.

That may indeed be the case, but never forget that roleplaying a Paladin is NOT easy. Especially when it does not come natural to you. There is a high percentage chance for those people it does not come natural to to mess up if they aren't in the mindset to be playing a Paladin and possibly be excluded from becoming one in the future.

I am not one of the people who finds roleplaying a Paladin as natural. Someone like me could not have their primary character as a Paladin. If, indeed, I ever were to make a Paladin it would have to be as an alt which I played 1/2 the time or 1/4th the time as my main. If I were to mess up after 2 years of roleplaying a Squire because I tried to treat my Squire as my main, I'd probably just respond with a less than savory comment and leave the MUD.

In a way, because of that, I don't think it's fair to suggest everyone who plays a Squire play them much more than necessary until lessons are completed. Especially those new to being a Squire who are more apt to making mistakes unintentionally.

[Sairaven]

I have little to add to the discussion, save for this:

To me, the challenge of playing a paladin is the balance, is the restriction. Not toeing the line day in and out, but from slipping occasionally and the role-play that comes from your mistakes.

I would think this is even more common for a squire, because they are still learning just what it takes to be a paladin. They are learning what the mistakes are.

So long as they are not 'fatal' mistakes, you can recover and, in the mean time, find some character-building RP.

[Dalvyn]

To me, the challenge of playing a paladin is the balance, is the restriction. Not toeing the line day in and out, but from slipping occasionally and the role-play that comes from your mistakes.

Correct. Roleplay your errors and your learning from them. Much better than choosing NOT to roleplay because you might make errors.

I would think this is even more common for a squire, because they are still learning just what it takes to be a paladin. They are learning what the mistakes are.

Correct. Squires that make mistakes and are not perfect are much more interesting to walk through lessons, I am sure.

So long as they are not 'fatal' mistakes, you can recover and, in the mean time, find some character-building RP.

Correct. THAT is character building.

Thanks for sharing this positive view on things.

[Selveem]

I was referring to OOC mistakes rather than IC ones. Like, for instance, if Selveem were to go to Howling Peaks and kill the goblin slaves along with the combatants. Something completely out of character for Selveem, but done through accidental OOC error.

Or, the occasional time when I acidentally smile at someone on Selveem - that's not something he would do. Few things make him smile.

If you're playing a character that's radically different from yourself, it takes effort. If you're not able to put forth that attention, I don't feel you should feel inclined to..

Why force your characters to suffer for something that you accidentally did while on them?

[Mariela]

A completely agree with the Paladins being a shining example, and not something that should be below level 20.

As a player with many characters trapped between levels 1 - 20.. it's a pain in the royal pants alone to get those characters up to level 20 much less try to get at least a decent amount of RP done AND get the ritual leveling that has to be done or you are pretty much faking it.

And then you want to add IC lessons that is basically intensive RPing? My heavens above, no wonder no one is really clammoring to play their squires!

Now, some people make characters to be Paladins. I can see that. The holy hand has touched you from birth, yadda yadda.. but can we submit characters later on for paladiness? Maybe the IM's could poke at some of the characters that embody more paladin traits, and see if they can steer them into the organization? I mean, how TIGHT are the IC rules about becoming a Paladin?

If we aren't getting the playability we should be out of the group, maybe we should work on making it more of an option for those older characters who have done everything, seen everything and are levels 30 -50 rather than fast tracking those from level 1-20.

[Glim]

I had a page character in the past. Unfortunately, I stopped playing him after his teacher/knight stopped logging on/quit the game. When the call for pages came out, I did not step up mainly because I did not and still do not have the time that I think should be put into to play a paladin character.

Sometimes I wish I could put my time into one, but my other character's responsabilities would prevent me from this. That is not a complaint, just a fact. I would hate to waste the effort that Kelemvor and whoever else is teaching the prospectives is putting into paladins.

[Nysan]

Paladin is an intimidating class to many. Not my personal opinion, but as someone who has been bouncing around FK for a bit of time, thats the feel I get when the class is discussed. The intense RP requirements of the class, the time (teacher and student) involved can breed guilt if RL causes breaks in log time, and heck even the let down some get when their teacher hasn't logged in in over a year. It all wears on folks I think. Truth be told, Andreas was the only paladin I knew that logged regularly that was actually played as a paladin, the real deal. Had thoughts of trying my hand at the class more than once, but with my RL setup not allowing regular logging in I know I couldn't get on enough to get through the lessons and trials in a timely fashion. Not that I don't mind dedicating months/years to an RP path, but when another player is involved as intently as a student/teacher arrangement, my unpredictable life would be a punishment on any teacher that I wouldn't want.

Great class, awe-inspiring RP potential, but difficult to get the foot in the door.

[Jaenoic]

This is a topic I've long thought about, and I'm glad it has been brought up. I'm even more glad Solaghar brought it up instead of me, because I don't think I could have put it as eloquently.

That said, I agree with many things said in this post. Paladins are an amazing class, perhaps my favorite with monk being a close rival. For that reason I am sorely disappointed by the incredible lack of paladins in this mud and furthermore, the lack of logged paladins. It is two problems in one: a lack of characters and a lack of logging.

I have often thought, there must be some reason the paladins we currently have do not frequently log. Is it that their players do not have much time? Or are they favoring other characters over their paladins because their paladin characters are not keeping them intrigued? I don't know the answer, I really do wonder why.

About squiring. I once had a squire, but my character's paladin sponsor stopped playing. It was very disheartening, and I felt that ICly there was nothing left for my character, having already made an oath he would not break to a person who no longer logs. I had put much time, effort, thought, and RP into my character but it was all made null by just one character leaving. It is as Nysan said, the nature of the squire/paladin relationship leaves much potential for let down.

But, I love that relationship. It develops both the student and mentor so much, and has the potential to generate so much RP. I wouldn't want it to change too drastically. But the sheer lack of paladins, and the number of squires who are still in training after more than a real life year, suggests that something could be done better.

I'm thrilled that the paladin training has gotten rejuvenated by Kelemvor. I was sooo thrilled when that first post was made, and I'm grateful for all the work he's done. Let me say, thank you Kelemvor, for all the time and effort you've shown me and everyone else concerned.

But if I may suggest something that I feel would help make the already good situation better. I feel strongly that getting outside characters involved in the training would be highly beneficial. I am not of course talking about asking Joe the rogue to help out, but rather having relevant LG characters help out. I am sure that Steeleyes have plenty that they can teach their Helmite squires.

However, the main problem I feel still lies in the lack of frequency. I never see paladins, but I also rarely see squires.(Save one who logs quite frequently) But while I know my own squire situation, I would like to hear from other squires and paladins about their opinions on this. Is there not enough draw for the squire and paladin? Are they too difficult to adventure with code-wise? Are the expectations of them too strict? Is there a lack of evil to oppose their righteousness?

[Kregor]

Or better... let 'em come hang with a NG Tormish ranger out in the trees for a while, get 'em seeing the world through elven wine and break them out of their shell a little...

[Jaenoic]

One thing I never really understood was the limitation on certain paladin orders. Mystra, Kelemvor, Corellon, these I can understand. But Lathander and Ilmater have large followings, I dare say Ilmater has as many as Tyr or Helm. Perhaps this is something to be considered in the future, removing the limits on these two orders? I know one thing that I found a little discouraging as a newbie looking at character options was that big thread that said in red letters "This order is closed." It made me feel like paladins were something off limits, when in fact there has been a need for them all along. Just some thoughts that came to mind, nothing ground-shaking.

[Kelemvor]

As with most things, bring me the players and I'll provide the opportunities.

Yes, Ilmateran and Lathanderite paladins would ICly have far greater numbers than the lesser orders they are joined with. However, paladin hopefuls have always been more likley to go for Helm Tyr or Torm because those religions are 'more obviously' paladin material.

In the two(?) years I've been looking after paladins I've not had to turn anyone away from an order yet.

[Jaenoic]

Perhaps that's because they would see "Order full" and not apply.

[Kregor]

I also think it takes a special breed of player to play an ilmateri paladin really well, considering the ethos (as well as the coded favor limitations). I don't think limiting the number is necessarily the answer, though, since you are effectively apping to become a paladin. There's plenty of opportunity to see if said character would cut it as a paladin of the Crying One before those spurs are handed out.

I do know, the one Ilmateri warrior I've known since my first days at FK is more Ilmateri than Ilmater

[Sairaven]

As with most things, bring me the players and I'll provide the opportunities.

Yes, Ilmateran and Lathanderite paladins would ICly have far greater numbers than the lesser orders they are joined with. However, paladin hopefuls have always been more likley to go for Helm Tyr or Torm because those religions are 'more obviously' paladin material.

In the two(?) years I've been looking after paladins I've not had to turn anyone away from an order yet.

I'm actually considering a paladin of Selune. Any thoughts?

[Mele]

Selune doesn't have a paladin order. :)

Oracle training is just as extensive as Paladin training, however.

*sell sell*