Drown

[Tyeslan]

The helpfile was updated within the last year. So I tend to go by what the PK helpfile states. It used to be that insta-kills were a no, but not any longer. All spells, regardless are usable except for the instance of time-stop.

[Tamryn]

Well, it doesn't say that they can't be used. Only that they can't be used to stun: because you can't, ICly, stun someone with an instant-kill spell.

(I actually assume this applies to PK and PvE equally...)

[Tyeslan]

Well, it doesn't say that they can't be used. Only that they can't be used to stun: because you can't, ICly, stun someone with an instant-kill spell.

(I actually assume this applies to PK and PvE equally...)

Correct. They will not stun, they will just kill. I don't believe this is an issue, and should be left to be discussed between those having the PK. Helpfile states it can be used. If there is an issue with instant kill spells, and a PK someone runs into, it needs to be taken to the appropriate channels, or complaint forum

I like the idea of instant kills spells having either death, or instant kill placed near the title. For instance:

Weird
====
Illusion (Phantasm) [Death/Kill] [Fear, Mind-affecting]
blahblah

Just for clarification because sometimes descriptions don't seem as they mean. As in the case of drown.

[Tamryn]

Correct. They will not stun, they will just kill.

No, they will stun, at least in my testing.

I like the idea of instant kills spells having either death, or instant kill placed near the title.

I'm not especially bothered about this, but SRD does say 'dies instantly' in the description where appropriate, which seems sufficient. This is the new text I wrote for DROWN:

You create water in the lungs of the affected target. If the target is
affected by water breathing, or otherwise has no need to breathe air, it is
unaffected. Otherwise, if it is unable to cough up the water from its lungs,
it dies instantly.

[Tyeslan]

When you go swimming, it causes you to take damage while you drown That is what I am in reference to, and I was unaware that you could possibly be the only one interested in this. SRD might say one thing, but not everyone uses that site to look, and it could be nice to have notification of it otherwise.

[Tamryn]

When you go swimming, it causes you to take damage while you drown That is what I am in reference to

That's not how drown (the spell) works though. It just kills you. (Or stuns you, in spar or stun killmodes.) I'm not saying that instant-kill spells shouldn't be used, I agree that the policy says they're allowed. The only problem is whether they can be used to stun people, instead of killing them: the forum PK policy says they can't.

SRD might say one thing, but not everyone uses that site to look, and it could be nice to have notification of it otherwise.

I don't mean that everyone should go and read the SRD. Rather, that when describing these spells, SRD uses the phrase 'dies instantly' (or similar) in the description to indicate it, which seems sufficient to convey the idea. So, we could do the same thing with our help files.

[Tyeslan]

You seem to be missing my point of: When drowning on the game, you take damage, therefore someone could associate that the spell would just damage not kill, therefore, I say to put something very simple as death or kill in the upper part of the spell file to determine if it is an insta death spell or not. All it would take is a quick look, and then you can go on your way without having to read the whole helpfile. Thank you!

[Tamryn]

Ah, then I agree! Sorry!

[Alitar]

As Anguin showed us, there is a ruling already on where Instant Kill spells fit. They're fit for killing opponents, not for stunning them. This rule is posted on the forums and I think it oughta be posted in the helpfile for PvP/PK as well. Though I'm curious as to why they'd fit into spar... I'm fairly certain spar is non-lethal. (isn't it? Pretty sure Harroghty's knocked Alitar unconcious in spar a few times...)

Can instant-death spells be used in PKills?
* Yes, but roleplay must happen before the fight as in all other instances.
* Instant-death spells should not be used in killmodes other than spar or kill; it isn't instant-stun.

- Mele, under the heading "Policy: PK"

tl;dr I think the quoted policy above should be shown in the PK/PvP helpfile. Also, a helpfile containing a list of which spells are Instant Kill(and a note in those spell's helpfiles) would be helpful.

[Raona]

I feel like this is all getting a little ticky-tacky. How about this for a policy:
"It is not permissible to intentionally initiate any action that you can reasonably expect would instantly kill an opponent while in killmode stun. This includes instant-death spells (like drown, power word kill, etc.) and other actions which would reasonably lead to the instant death of your opponent."

But honestly, having written that...I'm kind of lost on the point. Why is instant-stun off the table, if instant-death is not? Doesn't your level 50 orc hitting my level 12 gnome with their greatsword amount to the same thing? Is the idea that it is not IC to use a death spell to simply incapacitate someone, and that to stun them you have to beat them (carefully) to within an inch of their life?

[Nylo]

ICly, the orc could just hit the gnome gently in the side of the head with the flat of his blade to have the desired affect. But there's no IC way to turn an instadeath into an instastun.

[Gwain]

But honestly, having written that...I'm kind of lost on the point. Why is instant-stun off the table, if instant-death is not? Doesn't your level 50 orc hitting my level 12 gnome with their greatsword amount to the same thing? Is the idea that it is not IC to use a death spell to simply incapacitate someone, and that to stun them you have to beat them (carefully) to within an inch of their life?

I agree with this, why can't insta-death spells be used to stun? I watched someone use drown on another and it was in my opinion counteractive to rp as it simply ended after the spell. I would have no issue with someone holding back at the last second and making their opponent lose conciousness instead of being killed.

[Alitar]

Drown is a bit different than other death spells because, in my opinion, it shouldn't be an instant death. I think it should be a Four-Rounds-of-Dying during which you should have a command to stop the spell. Umberlants waterboarding their captives would an interesting RP.

That aside, I see spells as being like science. Put the spell into motion and it cannot be stopped. Like mixing two chemicals. That's how it's usually portrayed in the books(protagonist throws a spell and watches helplessly in slow motion as the wrong person steps into the way). Can't stop the fireball in the air once it's going. Drown puts water into lungs, it doesn't take it out. Wail of the Banshee throws a death-scream , it can't mute it once it is echoing in the victim's soul etc. etc. etc.

By my understanding, spells can't be taken back. We can suspend belief by allowing things like fireball to do non-lethal because it is a damaging spell and without doing that casters really couldn't spar non-casters; also, it isn't too hard to imagine a caster changing a couple words to make the fireball more "HE" than "incendiary". An instant kill spell, however... well... it's ICly intended to be instantly lethal. :S It could be looked at on a spell-by-spell basis but personally, I agree with the instant kill spells instantly killing things, not instantly stunning them.

Also, if I've come across as ticky-tacky I'm sorry! Definitely isn't my intent!

[Casamir]

While I am all for (waterboarding) humbly embracing the Queen's Mercy, I think that it fits more in the realm of RP. If the SRD has it as a kill spell, it should be a kill spell. Mostly it seems that everything is fine the way it is, other than expanding the help files to indicate what is a kill spell. Now the stun vs death, I think could be considered the difference between dropping someone to 0 hp vs -10 hp in PNP. Dying and almost dead, versus actually six feet under. The orc may leave that upstart gnome clinically dead for a small spat. I feel it's better left to IC discretion than OOC mandating, short of actual abuse. You try and murder someone with a spell during a friendly spar, and you will have to deal with the IC consequences.

[Tamryn]

If the SRD has it as a kill spell, it should be a kill spell.

You know... perhaps the best solution to this is to have these spells always be kill spells. So if you cast one in killmode stun... it still kills your target. Which fits with 'stun' being pulling a blow with a sword, but the impossibility of 'pulling' something like drown or phantasmal killer.

Having a note saying so in the help file seems like fair warning for that behaviour.

[Kaaurk]

In my opinion any spell that can kill should. I mean you're not going to to be able to cast a fire ball and make it not be fatal if the person can't take the damage it gives. You cannot pull back a spell like you could a blow from a sword or the like. So really Instant death spells are really like every other spell it just takes one of them instead of a few.

[Alitar]

Drown in canon(or at least, I think that's what I found) has the subject hit 0HP instantly and the next round they drop to -1. The third round they're dead unless someone succeeds a DC15 Heal check.
http://dndtools.eu/spells/underdark--34/drown--3485/
Anyone know of a better source than this? I've never seen this website before...

[Hrosskell]

That's actually a pretty reliable source, long used for feat look up and source-book referencing. They list down at the bottom what books it can be found in (not the page number for this one). I owe almost my entire knowledge of 3.0/3.5 fighter cheese-play (some would say optimization or at least making them on par with wizards) to this site and Giant in the Playgrounds.

[Rhangalas]

Enervation is not a instant death spell, it is a spell that causes the target to suffer negative levels.

Ah, I've never used the spell with any of my PCs. I didn't know FK handled it differently, but Enervation is supposed to be instant death if the criteria are met:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm

[Raona]

I appreciate the comments and feedback. I think the staff needs to have a huddle on this and confirm our current policy or revise it, then make it as clear as possible in the helpfiles. I almost never PvP kill/spar but I know folks do and the rules have to be crystal clear to reduce the possibility of hard feelings to a minimum.