A possibility: global reset

[Erwyth]

I'm still around! Wooo


I will admit, after reading this entire thread from cover to cover, that I am for the reset. My reasons why are as follows:

I joined this mud specifically because TMC said it was D&D based. Either it is or it isn't. If it isn't change your posting. I'm a hardcore PnP player. I joined the mud because not many people in the Army play D&D.

I can tell you right now, IMO, the mud is not balanced. It has been said before - it may be said again. I believe because some of the weapons, and feats, do not work correctly, that all characters are the same. Maybe this is untrue?

I've tried to be different in my choices of feats / focuses... Yet my character suffers for it. Which means, IMO, FK suffers for it.

It was stated that players were using glory to earn stat points. I did this. It was not an abuse of the system and I know the number crunch aspect of D&D. I spent 0 glory on feats, because it wasn't needed. Even with my 100 glory, 5 feats, am I as balanced to other players? I know I'm not, because I know of a player, or two, who have titanic strength, unbuffed. Plus the con. Which means, they also have the stats needed to gain access to other quests...

I thought the glory was a part of the "initiation process" to "catch up" to the older characters.

So, as a new player. I am pro stat / feat /glory reset.

Just, please fix some of the broken feats before adding in the new ones?

*cough*

archery

[Nysan]

Complete reset... *shudder* That would end it for me and for one reason only: my dwarf. I just do not have the energy or will-power to start over in his trades, a key component of his RP. Resetting stats, feats, heck even levels doesn't bother me that much, but having to start over in trades would suck the life out of me. But, this is not about a complete reset, thankfully.

I do agree and hope this change is accompanied or soon followed by fixes for stuff like archery. I like to think a reset like this would open up the door, codewise, to fixing some problems.

[Kirkus]

I just want to say a few things, ask some questions... First, something like 63 posts in a less than two days makes this a fast paced post. Frenzied, is what it looks like.

Is there a way, perhaps, to save some of our progress? Like Grandmasters. Maybe we give tokens to everyone with a grandmaster in a skill and then after we wipe the slate, we reinstate those grandmasters. GM's in skills, at least it is my opinion, were the hard things to achieve.
Perhaps we only allow someone a limited number of GM's to cary over.

[Jaenoic]

I don't believe skills are up for the proposed reset. Only stats and feats.

[Nysan]

Nope, skills are not on the table.... I just went on a rant when Mariela put the idea in my head

[Selveem]

I don't believe skills are up for the proposed reset. Only stats and feats.

I think it's fairer to say that skills aren't currently up for reset.

As we move closer to 3.5, should a reset occur, I highly suggest everyone put their points into intellect and brace for that possible shift, too.

For those of you who don't play D&D, I have a list of skills and their synergies. I can explain the skill point system and how it relates to your intellect. Feel free to send a PM.

[Selveem]

If this change occurs in bringing us closer to D&D 3.5, I also think we should be able to see our statistics so that we can build them properly for what it is that we want.

[Kelemvor]

Can we try to stick to the topic at hand.. the possibility of a resetting of character stat points and the option of also resetting feat points.

All these suppositions and random opinions on things that are not even a twinkle in the eye at this time are misdirecting folks' mental energies in completely the wrong areas.

As we move closer to 3.5, should a reset occur, I highly suggest everyone put their points into intellect and brace for that possible shift, too.

And that sort of comment is just plain silly. Moving closer to 3.5 does not mean attaching ourselves slavishly to it. Skills are not up for discussion, in fact no-one has even suggested that they become a subject for discussion.

Consequently, basing your actions now on something that may in fact never happen and going so far as to designing your characters 'to cope' with a vague possibility that something might happen... ridiculous.

[Zilvryn]

I'm a hardcore PnP player. I joined the mud because not many people in the Army play D&D

Same here, but I digress...

As Nedy said earlier on, it's been a massive learning curve already for some of the older chars to work out how to play their chars again since returning to play the MUD, in my case I still don't know how to work my casters... and I don't have the time to get involved and work it out.

Question: Will the trainers still be in game that allow you to train to 20/21? One of my chars has a 20 int, legitimately trained, another has 20 dex... Will we be able to use our "new" stat points to return to these trainers and have our stats back to how they were? High level chars in DnD get stats (generally just their prime one) well above 18... And it should be this way shouldn't it?

I'm apathetic either way, reset or don't, so much has changed in the last couple of years (mostly positive) that I am still to get to grips with that it'll make little difference to me.

At least if things do get reset it'll stop everyone moaning about imbalance etc...

[Caelnai]

At least if things do get reset it'll stop everyone moaning about imbalance etc...

This seems very unlikely to me. Every mud on the net pursues that "perfect code balance" which is, of course unachievable, and people will always complain about this. I favor RP over PvP, so for me consistancy in RP on a mud (aided by consistancy in code for a given PC) is far more important than the endless tinkering of code to achieve this or that uberness.

Irony - I say this as a coder who loves tinkering. Of course, the muds I code that favour that tinkering are not my favourite to play on.

[Nearraba]

Well, the first day Dalvyn originally posted this topic, I wrote an entire spiel on why I was Anti- Tabula Rasa and against the entire reset idea. Though since my post did not want to work for me, and kept not working for a day I got to read all the other posts, and it calmed my outlook down. I try my best on understanding all the technical things, (even though Im not very good at it) but here I go....

I do not know any hardcore codes; all the numbers in stats and spells and skills, and feats just pretty much confuse me. I have absolutely no clue about D&D. This is a roleplay-based mud, though I know that for sure. =)

I know the goals of this idea are not -what so ever- to penalize older characters, though not giving them a choice on the matter just does not seem very positive. The staff on this mud do so much for the game & the people in it, it is amazing. Ive been playing since the middle of 2003, so I've somewhat been with those of you that had to go through alot of the changes, but if we could endure those, I am sure this will be a piece of cake. Even Ill be a little heartbroken, but we can do this together.

One of the things I do not understand is this...
It was said that if there was a reset, characters could re-choose their stats if they wanted... Couldn't players put the stats back to exactly how they were before? Making it exactly the same? So what would be the point of the reset then?

For example, say Fayona has a Blinding charisma, but for some reason she has a +1 higher than newer characters. Is that stat going to be permanently taken away?
Will the trainers we are going to be able to re-train stats at, going to be able to train all the way up to the highest stat rank possible? Or will they have limits such as in the newbie temples?

Or am I just totally wrong and missing the entire point?

How much more power do the "older characters" have, anyway? How this is coming off to me is, that the "older characters" are so much more in advantage that -no one- has a chance to even come close. Though I totally disagree there..

As for long-range goals...
Max level characters could work towards learning trades and maybe even implementing new trading ideas. They could work on new quests which are constantly being worked on and put into the game. We could work on more quests, that you must be a certain high level to complete and you gain rename points maybe? And if your character is a people person, you can always take on an apprentice. =) Instead of exchanging glory points into feat/stat points, there could still be the glory for deity favour? And also, Ill repeat a common idea here... Renames and roleplay, roleplay, roleplay. =) Once you reach Grandmaster at something characters still have goals, especially if they're in a faith. And I'm more than positive we can think of many more alternative ideas, just no more are coming to me right now.

Not everyone will be happy. half of us believe it is good how it is, while the other half thinks it's unbalanced. I trust the system is going to change, whether we all agree on it or not, and that may not be such a bad thing, Im not sure! But, I have faith in our Staff, and they won't let the game go astray.

I hate sounding so negative, but just my view for now on the subject. I'm still wishy-washy on the topic.

[Dalvyn]

It was said that if there was a reset, characters could re-choose their stats if they wanted... Couldn't players put the stats back to exactly how they were before? Making it exactly the same? So what would be the point of the reset then?

You might not like numbers ... but I'll have to use some to answer your questions.

Assume, for the sake of simplicity, that we have only 2 stats : Physical and Mental.

- People start with Physical 10 and Mental 10 and they have 6 points to distribute during character creation.

- They can thus start as a level 1 character with Physical 16/Mental 10, or Physical 13/Mental 13, or Physical 10/Mental 16, or any other Physical/Mental combination for which values are higher than 10, and they sum up to 26.

- At level 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50, the character would gain one stat point that he can use to increase either Physical or Mental. A level 50 character would thus have (for example) Physical 21/Mental 10, Physical 16/Mental 15, Physical 13/Mental 18, or Physical 10/Mental 21.

- That is, at level 50, Physical + Mental would be 31. That's the expected/normal value.

- Now ... assume that the character can also convert glory points into stat points ... that would let them train up Physical and/or Mental so that, at level 50, his total Physical + Mental might be higher than 31.

- Now ... to add to the problem, say that older characters gained stat points not only at level 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 ... but also at level 5, 15, 25, 35, and 45. That means that older characters had +5 stat points more than the newer ones.

What would/could the suggested reset do?

(A) Older characters. Consider first the case of an older character who never bought stat points with glory. He would have something like Physical 16/Mental 20. He has a total of 36, while the "normal" total is 31. He would thus "lose 5 points" (which would be turned into 100 extra/free glory points), and would have the opportunity to redistribute his points for free (free trainers or some other method that does not require coins). He would then be reset to Physical 10/Mental 10 with 11 points to distribute as he wants.

(B) Character who used glory -> stats. The character spent 100 glory to gain +5 stat points. Using those +5 stat points, he reached something like Physical 16/Mental 20. He too get 100 glory back (he would just be reimbursed), he would be reset to Physical 10/Mental 10, and he would be allowed to redistribute 11 points.

Those are examples of what a stat reset might/would do.

[Julthain]

I'm all for it.

If the gold spent on training stats is an issue, why not make stat/feat training free for a short period of time, giving everyone a chance to retrain them. Possibly throw in a temporary trainer that trains all of the stats/feats in a few common places throughout the realms. A stat cap would also lend more weight to items/spells that alter ability scores.

This would also allow you to get rid of those feats/stats you trained but later found that you wished you had just saved the point and put it towards something else. And as far as feats go, there is also a scribe/brew trainers "chain" in the works. So all of you that have characters you wanted to be able to participate in this, but can't because you spent all your points, would have a chance to go for it.

You have to admit it is ridiculous for a wizard or other usually frail character in terms of strength/constitution to be able to have scores so high that they can stand alone in a room full of aggro mobs and devastate them with melee attacks coupled with powerful spells due to equally high intelligence scores. I think you should have to choose one or the other, not be able to have both.

Anyone who would disagree with such improvement obviously has a character they know is way too powerful and they don't want their unfair advantages taken away.

[Selveem]

Anyone who would disagree with such improvement obviously has a character they know is way too powerful and they don't want their unfair advantages taken away.

If you actually read the thread, you'd notice the majority of players against the reset are not whining about their characters being weaker.

As far as a Wizard blasting through tons of mobs because they have less stats? If you sincerely think less stats would truly hamper that, you should meet my wizard who hasn't modified his Con.

[Julthain]

Your ability scores affect everything your character is able to do. If your scores are all equally high, you will basically be good at everything, which negates class originality and creates the ability for all characters-regardless of class-to be the same. Each class should have areas in which they excel in(strengths) and areas in which they have little to no skill in(weaknesses).

The wizard scenario was just an example. I was not referring to a wizards buffs/combat spells, but was pointing out that you should not be able to have the best of both worlds.

I.E. Able to rival a fighter in terms of melee damage PLUS be able to cast spells just as well.
(I doubt a character that has spent most of their days hovering over a tome learning Arcane secrets is going to have titanic muscles, unless those pages were very heavy.)

[Zilvryn]

Just in response to Julthain's last post..

I'm pretty sure that's not how it is anyway... My wizard has used 100 glory on stats and has a base 13 con & str (which was the starting level when he was created), he has a 20 int, 18 wis and high dex and cha. He gets the crap kicked out of him in melee...

Edit, he might have a higher con that but my point stands... Very few characters, if any, are walking around with 18+ in all of their stats...

[Selveem]

I think there are a lot of misconceptions here that our newer players are buying a bit too heavily into.

As stated previously by (I forget who), most character strength comes from GMing skills/spells, understanding the combat system, years of dedicated RP to gain notoriety (good or bad), and the acquisition of powerful, high-end quest equipment.

It is my sincere hope that the newer players posting about how this will even things out understand that it may actually put them behind, still. If you make a fighter with the decreased stats, but no ability to glory convert, it will be a long, long time before you GM dual wield (take it from someone who had 13 int until Dual Wield was at Master 2 (the rank right before Grand Master). This goes the same for your many other skills and spells that determine your combat effectiveness.

Skills and spells in FK take literally years to GM. I can say this with complete authority on the matter.

If you're a newer player and you're thinking this change will instantly bring you to the same level as older characters, you might wish to revisit this thought.

[Brodnur]

Well, it took a while, but I have read through all the replies to this post. Everyone has raised a lot of good points, both in favor of, and against the proposed global reset. Myself? If it were put to a vote, I would have to check the ballot in the "no" slot. There are a lot of the players that have spent many, many hours of work on their characters. And to have alot of what makes these characters famous, such as this one's strength, or that one's gift with magic, taken away by a reduction of stats/feats, it seems to me to be disregarding all those many thousands of hours these people have put into this game, enriching the role play around them in myriad ways. If there are some people that haven't played this game as long as some of the others have, who's fault is that? No ones. This fact simply is. I don't want to sound like I'm griping or anything, but I just feel that this is not a good idea.
If some player characters wish to have their's reset, and the Admin are in agreement with this, then go for it. But I think it should be on a volountary basis. Thats just my two coppers worth.
Whether or not it's worth the coins, those are my thoughts on the subject.

[Dalvyn]

Just pointing out some misconceptions so that people can base their opinion on things more concrete and not fears or incorrect hypothesis.

And to have alot of what makes these characters famous, such as this one's strength, or that one's gift with magic,

If someone has invested all their starting stat point and all their stat points gained from leveling up on the same stat and acquired (for example) a Strength of 30, and a Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Constitution of 10, I can't see that happening.

Most characters have one or two main stats, and they will be able to keep those stats as high as they were. What they wouldn't be able to do is keep ALL their stats to very high levels.

For example, a fighter with a 18 Strength, 18 Dex, 18 Con, 18 Int, 18 Wis and 18 Cha would have to drop their stats to something like 18 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 12 Int, 12 Wis, 12 Cha perhaps ... but they would keep their high scores in the main stats.

I can't see why someone who is known for their great strength would then suddenly not have their great strength anymore. What might happen is : someone who is known for their great Str AND their great Dex AND their great Con AND their great Int AND their great Wis AND their great Cha would then lose on some stats, yes.

taken away by a reduction of stats/feats

According to our statistics, there would be no reduction in feats at all, because people haven't used the stat -> feat conversion that much. On the contrary, people would rather see increases in the number of feats (fighters would get bonus feats, rogues would gain special rogue feats, wizards would gain bonus metamagic/item creation feats, and rangers would get 2-weapon fighting/archery specialization feats).

it seems to me to be disregarding all those many thousands of hours these people have put into this game, enriching the role play around them in myriad ways.

We certainly do not diregard the hours spent enriching the roleplay arond them, and we are actually considering other options to reward those.

Would the old characters lose something they gained thanks to their many hours spent online? I don't think so. For one - as some pointed out, they did not really do anything special to gain those high stats. Secondly, they wouldn't have to reduce their main stats (they would just be prevented from having all-around high stats). Thirdly, in exchange for reduced stats, they will gain glory points that they will then be able to spend on some new things (we're still working this out).

All in all, it might be a positive change for them: the reduction in the secundary stats would not affect them much, but the gain in glory would open new options for them.

[Selveem]

I see a bunch of 18s in there. What of the characters who legitimately trained a stat to 20? As has been advertised, there are in-game trainers that train stats to 20. Will they have to hunt all throughout the realms to find them again?