A possibility: global reset

[Horace]

Yes. Bonuses of the same type on the same modifier will never stack unless expressly stated that the item is intended to. This rule goes for all aspects of the game.

[Selveem]

What are you referring to?

[Pirro]

That is still under discussion ... so it's not really possible to give you a precise answer right now. (Just thought I'd answer this so you don't think you are being ignored!)

Fair enough -- thanks!

[Belose]

Wonderful. I've been able to live with all the other changes, but reset? How can you replace everything that went into your fighter being what they are now? I hate people bringing up, and I quote: "IT'S MORE REALISTIC!!" Big deal. It's a Fantasy game, if we wanted realistic, we'd play the Sims. Not to mention the RP and coin spent to be what you are now. How in the world can someone know what to do to take all they gain from the reset and put it where it will make the new fighter be as close to the old fighter as possible? If there is a way that I can take all of the new stuff and be told how to apply it to keep Braeck the same, fine. And not have to pay extra or go searching for ALL the different trainers to get him as close to possible to what he was. I think if you reset anything, you're just unmaking the character and they are no longer the character someone has built. I've pretty well flowed with all the changes so far and if you reset, you're just erasing everything that makes Braeck who and what he is. It would be better just for Moradin to come and take him home with Him. I don't know.. if you had one room set aside for all the fighters to go to so they can do it all in one place without paying for it... maybe...or if Moradin showed up and CHANGED him.. guess he'd have to live with it....my head hurts....

[Horace]

Dude, he won't just be "as close as possible" he'll be much better - even if you blow feats on junk that don't help you at all. The change will extremely help Braeck, I promise you this.

I feel like people are missing some points here, as far as what the feats will make up.

weapon specialization - this effectively is +4 to your strength to determine damage with that weapon (greater spec is +8 effective)

weapon focus - +2 to your strength to determine "to hit" with the weapon

This is without going into armor feats, dual wield feats, two handed weapon feats, sword and shield feats. Plus about 4 more.

All these options effectively give you attribute points, in a specialized fashion. I promise you fighters come out way ahead, as long as you choose your feats with reasonable consideration.

I hope that eases some of your concerns. You really want these feats, number wise for fighters, it isn't even close.

[Belose]

Man.. it's the TIME....I've put in over 911 hours on making Braeck what he is. NOW I have to spend THIS MUCH extra time that I could be using to PLAY him but now I have to use to REMAKE HIM? Seriously! It's freaking aggravating! It wouldn't bother me so much if there was one place, something like the fighter's tournaments to determine the Heads of the Fighter's Guilds where only the fighters could go and have the teachers for all that training to redo in one place. And would teach us for free because we were GOOD!!!! I think I need an aspirin, now....

[Vibius]

Please.

I think that there is a misconception here: Most of the time spent in a character is spent in skills/spells/levels which will be untouched, retraining feats/stats will take less than a single hour.

[Tavik]

To add a little bit to what Vibius said, all feat and stat points will be immediately reimbursed (minus those gained via glory transfers) and (if I understood Lathander correctly earlier in this thread) those reimbursed points will be special in that you can immediately apply them to whatever stat/feat you want for free and without having to find the trainer for it.

So it will basically be as you suggested, Belose, as far as getting stats/feats back, except there will be no need for a special room.

[Peverell]

What I took from Lathander's comment was that there would be a one-off redistribution of the reimbursed stat points, kind of like how you distribute stat points during character creation. You wouldn't need to travel far and wide looking for "that" trainer who can train you to "that" level. And you wouldn't need to shell out a bajillion platinum to do so.

Now, did I get completely the wrong impression, or are my thoughts similar to what is intended?

[Selveem]

Not trying to stir the incendiaries, but..

To add a little bit to what Vibius said, all feat and stat points will be immediately reimbursed (minus those gained via glory transfers) and (if I understood Lathander correctly earlier in this thread) those reimbursed points will be special in that you can immediately apply them to whatever stat/feat you want for free and without having to find the trainer for it.

Except, despite my asking twice on this forum alone, there has still been no response as to whether the trainer/redistribution process will allow any of the stats to be trained to 20+racial modifier (if applicable). So, some characters indeed will possibly be weaker than they used to be (even without considering the loss of the amount of stat points they had to distribute if they are 'older' characters).

So, if that isn't the case, those who trained them to 20 legitimately, may not have those reimbursed.

[Dalvyn]

Taking a step backward and getting a global look at this discussion ...

This is also a test: Should important decisions be taken behind the scenes and then presented to the whole playerbase, or is it possible to have a constructive public discussion?

Some are of the mind that players should have a voice and are able to take part in a dicussion and see "the whole picture" and write their opinions (be they pro or con the change) in a thoughtfully manner by developping arguments.

Some think that it's simply not worth causing a ruckus by talking about topics that players might - understandably - take at heart, and that no constructive discussion can be held when people are emotionally affected by the discussion and do not go "one step beyond", into a rational discussion (especially when/if some people stir things voluntarily or not to paint the staff as heartless people who don't value hours invested for the good of the mud).

I'm just writing this to be as open as possible. Take it as you will!

[Selveem]

I think that should be a completely separate discussion altogether.

Should important decisions be taken behind the scenes and then presented to the whole playerbase, or is it possible to have a constructive public discussion?

What some people consider constructive public discussion, others consider: a waste of time, emotionally charged flames, irrational (which, the word by definition, is subjective) beliefs, boring, annoying, worthless, or useless.

Personally, even when I disagree with someone, I still want to hear their take on something. Some of my longest-running friends from FK and I have disagreements often regarding things. It's nice to hear the other side, to me.

Some are of the mind that players should have a voice and are able to take part in a dicussion and see "the whole picture" and write their opinions (be they pro or con the change) in a thoughtfully manner by developping arguments.

I would tend to agree with those people. I would go a step farther and even say that debate is the cornerstone of careful, planned change that best suits all sides.

Some think that it's simply not worth causing a ruckus by talking about topics that players might - understandably - take at heart, and that no constructive discussion can be held when people are emotionally affected by the discussion and do not go "one step beyond", into a rational discussion

I'm going to offend the hell out of someone here, which apparently I'm great at: to those who think that players (Imm, other staff, and regular player alike) shouldn't get a say in matters that affect their time and effort placed into the game, they should perhaps be playing a single-player game.

To say that others shouldn't have a say or shouldn't be aware of possible changes is, in my opinion, selfish.

There is nothing wrong with emotion; not a single person is a machine and should not be expected to be completely complacent at all times. If one has a problem dealing with emotion, I would suggest that is a personal fault.

especially when/if some people stir things voluntarily

I've been accused of this before (and currently?), so I can speak personally with regards to this. I'm opinionated and I generally am not prone to changing my mind incessantly. What I typically back is most of the time not a selfish thought, but what I believe is better for everyone involved. Why? Because I care about this MUD and its many, many players. I've said it before, I'll say it again, and however many more times is needed until everyone understands: I want to maintain our players. Not just new ones, but old ones too. Actually, now that I've stated it: especially old ones. The people that have stuck around through all the craziness that's been. The huge amount of time the MUD went down, but still came back. That's dedication; why wouldn't you want to keep those people around.

That being said, I recognize not everyone can be saved. I'm not foolish, but I am optimistic. I know over years we'll lose players for many reasons, but that doesn't mean we should strive for it or put on a bold face and back something we don't believe in because we don't think it's truly in the best interest of all players.

As for someone who is "attempting to paint the staff as heartless people who don't value hours invested for the good of the MUD.." What I will say of 'those people,' who may be unfairly labeled as 'that type of person:' I don't know any; not a single one. I have, in the past, yes. In the days of the "old staff" where the MUD was VERY friend or foe-based. Where, if you spoke up against something, you're labeled pretty much for the entire stay here - if you got to stay. Where, if someone believed your character eating the heart of his or her enemy was evil because of their own narrow-sighted OOC (possibly religious?) views, you were threatened with an alignment change or other IC repercussions. Where if you said something in the game and it was misunderstood by a staff member, you were banned from the game.

I am not saying that I believe the current staff always considers the magnitude of what they believe is fair justice IC/OOC. There are many things that I can name, but does that mean I think the staff is heartless or I should be an advocate for suggesting they are? No, not hardly. The staff, just like any other players, are just people. They do the best they can with what they know and have.

For those I've offended who believe it was intentional, I apologize, but these are my personal beliefs and not meant as an attack against anyone.

Just wanted to put that out there.

[Hrosskell]

Selveem's always a hard act to follow (don't worry, I still love you), but I think I can still put forth my two cents freely.
So here goes, I guess:

My response to a global reset would be no. Now, before anyone gets too excited or upset, I will say that if the majority decides this is more "fair" or better for "equality", then that's alright, and I'll stand by what decision is made. However, as a player of seven to eight years, I would like to think that my hard work towards specifics, be they stats, feats, equipment, or roleplayed relationships, positions, or characteristics, would not be lightly tossed to the way-side. Everyone on this MUD (save a select few of very talented roleplayers) wants a character that is all they want it to be--strong, durable, smart, and charming. There's no reason that after playing that hero from a tongue-tied, clumsy teenager to a wise old crone that every person shouldn't have someone who is exactly how they want them to be. The glory exchange -is- the polishing system in FK. Your character doesn't have to be a brute anymore, he can study in his later years and get smarter--or your character can come out of the library and practice some swordplay. I don't think caps, resets, or anything like that should be around because while you may have your abusers, you have a few hardworking people who enjoy what their character, an honest extension of themselves, has become: strong, wise, smart, beautiful, quick, or hardy on a legendary scale, and not too shabby all around.

P.S.- As an afterthought, I'm not implying that a character should have all 18's or anything like that, but, I don't think a few 18's and solid 16's are a bad thing. I mean, our characters are growing as we play them. They should get better all around.

[Zorinar]

Hello all.

I have some questions / concerns about the reset. I am what you would call a new player here, I guess which gives me a different perspective, probably a more naive one, than the older players here that are voicing their opinions.

FIrst of all, I guess I get it. The stat distribution is not equal among players and the staff wants to make it equal. However, the arguements and reasons for it, I dont get to an extent. You see, regardless of whether you do a reset or not, the older players will still have a juicy advantage, and I dont mean RP wise.

As I understand, a major reason for the change (as posted) is because the staff wants to move the mud towards the 3.5 rules. This is great because I love 3.5 would love to see the mud go even more D&D like. This in itself creates some problems, though, for new players as I see it. Let me try to explain my point through a newbie wizard.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no idea what my stats are because I cannot see them but.....

I know that my spell components / gear weigh a freaking ton and I need more strength to keep my load to MEDIUM / borderline heavy. I know this because on this mud, the dexterity bonus to armor class decreases as your load increases. Not really so in D&D. (Common, who really adds up weight in pen and paper?) This means that I have to put some stats into strength here because I cannot wear armor and I need to keep what little dex bonus I have, in effect. Those precious stat points should have been put into INT.

Not such a big deal, right? Old players, new players all deal with it. Well, let us continue then.

Quests! I like to do them, and you get some fairy nice rewards from them. I hate, absolutely hate, to see unfinished quests in my quest log. I dont why, call me OCD. I am a new player here so doing quests kind of awakens me to the mud, so to speak. HOWEVER, you need a certain amount of Charisma to get some of these quests! In fact, there is at least one teacher I know that will not teach me because some of my stats are too low. This is not the case with D&D either. So.... I need to try to dump stat points into charisma now because I want to enjoy the quests and the fruits of those quests. Yet again, stat points that should be put into INT as a Wizard.

So.. let us continue with Constitution. Everyone's favorite stat on this mud. When you play 3.5 paper D&D you ( I hope) are playing with a group of friends. You can play the wizard because you have the warrior with you or whomever. On this mud, I end up doing a lot of soloing because ...well.. Im new and the older players are established here and I am really too weak to go with them anyways. So I NEED to put some quality stat points into Con just to stay alive when doing the feeble little things I can do, like fighting hobgoblins.

So lets recap, I NEED to put stats into certain things on this mud in order to enjoy it that I would not have to have done to the same extent in D&D. In our push to drive the stat system to a more D&D like model, we are taking away the glory to stat point system giving us less stat points to use to get the fullest enjoyment out of this mud. Seriously, the charisma thing just kills me.

So, when the stat reset happens and the older players lose some points, they have already done the quests and gained the rewards for such. They have build up the money to buy or acquire the juicy items that make life easier, allow them to carry more, to be more nimble, whatever. So go ahead and reduce their stats, they are can now reallocate and cut down on charisma and maybe INT because they have their skills high. They can focus on Con and whatever else their class demands now. The new player though, suffers. Sure we have the same stat points now, but we would need to make some serious and permanent sacrifices to our stats to get the charisma where we want it just so we can do quests or whatever other stat/situation you need to enjoy the mud. The older players in the end, get a huge advantage over everyone else. But, that is not the point. The point is that I am not going to be able to enjoy the mud to its fullest now, not be able to do all the quests and still be able to be a decent wizard, not be able to go fight orcs by myself etc.. In fact, I will be forced to just sit in a room and train spells all day long, since there will be nothing else left to do unless the OCCASSIONAL group adventure comes along, which is very rare for me.

I would love, or at least not mind at all, for the reset but for the fact that without the glory to stat option, I will be forced to dump my stats into my class stats and lose out on quests (I cant even do a lot now, I am trying to save up glory to beef up my charisma) and maybe even my carrying capacity, soloing ability etc... So, are my concerns valid or have I just missed the boat here?

Zor

[Tavik]

Hey Zorinar,
I can understand your concerns about missing out on quests and the like and I would agree that the older characters will be getting some benefit out of a reset. Not only will they be able to change stats around from the stats they don't really need anymore, they'll have a better understanding of how their character works and be able to basically rebuild their character to be more efficient. Is that good or bad? I don't know, I think it's good, but I can understand the arguments that would say it's bad. One of the things you have to consider is that the older players have put a lot of work into their characters to keep them progressing, so if you are going to take away one of the things they've worked for, you have to give them something else to compensate for it.

Now as for your personal characters, DnD is (and always has been) about choice. No single character will ever get to experience everything the game has to offer. My main character (also a wizard) can't do several quests for the charisma reason you mentioned. He also has a a medium load that is bordering heavy so he too does not get his total potential dex bonus to AC. Futhermore, his con isn't too high, so he can't sustain a whole lot of damage. I really can sympathize with what you are talking about. But these are all choices I made. Any choice you make in the game will potentially exclude you from some other aspect of the game, but you gain access to what you want. The best way to see ALL that the game has to offer is to create a variety of diverse characters. Individually, they will all be limited in what they can do, but collectively YOU will get to experience everything. PLUS, there is nothing that says you have to abide by class stereotypes. If you want to make a dumb wizard that has the ability to blind people with a smile, go for it! You won't be able to cast as well as most wizards, but you'll have access to all those cha based quests that you currently do not.

One last thing to consider that sort of ties into the above is that if you REALLY want to see all the game has to offer, you need to consider all the RP aspects of the game. My fighter character gives me a whole different type of RP than my wizard does and my wizard RP is completely different from my priest RP. Also consider that there are different "societies" if you will, within the game. The tree main ones are the city goods, the nature goods, and the evils (There's a LOT of little subgroups, I'm just generalizing). A single character will NOT be able to show you what all three are like, so if you're curious about those, you'll again need multiple characters with different traits.

In short, if your concerns are that you won't be able to create a single "see-it-all" character, then yes, your concerns are valid as you will have to decide which direction to take with that character. But isn't that decision making part of the fun?

P.S. Just because you're a new player, doesn't mean your views are naive or any less valid than an older player's. It really is good to get opinions from people such as yourself simply because you DO have a different perspective which can reveal things we may not otherwise see.

[Selveem]

If you want to make a dumb wizard that has the ability to blind people with a smile, go for it! You won't be able to cast as well as most wizards, but you'll have access to all those cha based quests that you currently do not.

I just want to comment on this. If you make a wizard, you are required to have at least 10 Int + Spell Level in order to cast that level of spell. I know this works that way in FK too, because I can't cast level 9 spells on my Priest who has 18 wis. You make a wizard that is dumb as a doornail and high charisma, you may have just made a rogue instead. It's a waste of a character IMO.

[Tavik]

I'm aware that my example is not a good idea. I wasn't suggesting people do that, I was simply illustrating that options like that ARE available and that making decisions like that give you a benefit in some ways, but will also have a drawback.

A better example would be a wizard sacrificing 8th and 9th level spells in order to have a much higher STR, giving the wizard much better mele abilities, as well as a higher DEX bonus to their AC (Because of being able to carry more weight and keeping a light load). You would get a benefit that most wizards don't have, while giving up one that most wizards do have. Plus, it gives your character a unique RP, like seeing that wizard manhandle an orc's face onto a wall and then using a spell to freeze it's face to the wall.

[Aldren]

Time for me to chime in.

I am for the reset for a number of reasons.
1. It will give a chance for those of us who've made mistakes or mis-guided point drops into stats a chance to "fix" them, ala re-investing our stat points how we want them to be distributed.
2. I've spent nearly all of Aldren's glory points on stat points, with a few exceptions of a number of feat points taken. With the ability to have items renamed, etc. with glory all but removed from the MUD, this was the only option for most of us (still a viable option, I believe).
3. With the re-distribution of stat points, a number of new feats coming in for fighters, warriors, rangers, etc. will become availabe. I.e. more two-handed feats, dual-wielding feats, etc. This will help offset some of the "weaknesses" facing losing a number of our glory-earned stat points.

I'll state it again, as many before me have, it's not the stats that make the character, it's the player. How YOU play your character defines how they end up interacting and RPing with others on FK. Stats are only a reflection of where the player has decided to allot points.

[Taerom]

Firstly, I reserve my judgement about this idea for the time being.

Secondly, whether there is a stat reset or not, and regardless of how it is carried out, I feel like it's pertinent that players should know what their stats are (numerically) to begin with. I think stats should appear as numbers and not as adjectives in the score sheet. All that the adjectives do is create a knowledge gap between those who understand what the adjectives mean numerically, and those who don't. (And between those who have kept track of their stats from creation and those who haven't.)

[Zorinar]

I agree with Tavik that there are choices to be made and that your character will be unique for them. I simply wanted to point out that the older players will not have to make those sacrifices now. They will be able to enjoy all aspects of the game where the younger ones will not, after the reset.